Chow is in lineage of EPK????

[GAB]

Actuaaly Doc did'nt really slight anybody. he offered an opinion and a bird eye view. If you don't want to accept either one that is your problem



"He begged borrowed and stole much of what he used, pretty simple in my take of things". That statement is a slight (IMHO). Pretty simple? EDAK has created some great fighters thru the years.

So you figure 70% of people think Chow is in the lineage...What's your point???

Hi Kai,

The poll show's 70+% are in favor of ....YES.... Chow was in the lineage.

My humble opinion is he did beg, borrow and stole, it happens all the time but most will give credit where credit is due...Take the book "Secrets of Chinese Karate" for starters...

He produced some great fighters, that is a matter of discussion of deeper merit, usually these fighters were great because they were..Any good trainer worth his salt will tell you, I just guided him he was great when he walked in....

I have quite a bit of admiration for the Man who created American Kenpo, it does not mean I put him in a status of a god. He would be proud of that, he only believed in one god and never did care to be placed there....

What I am objecting to is the shirt tail followers continuing to put words in the mouth of a man who has been gone for 14 years plus....

He was a Martial Arts teacher and salesman, a good one at that.

With that I have concluded my thoughts on this subject...

Reggards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Thank you

Your conclusion is as confusing and psyco as the beginning

Of course the fighters that came out of the EPAK circles were already great!!! Actually it is certain skill to recognize, nourish and reach that talent, but no, ed did'nt do anything he was busy out there stealing!!

 

[Bill Lear]

Thank you

Your conclusion is as confusing and psyco as the beginning

Of course the fighters that came out of the EPAK circles were already great!!! Actually it is certain skill to recognize, nourish and reach that talent, but no, ed did'nt do anything he was busy out there stealing!!

How do you make your house the biggest in town? Gary's method seems to involve a recking ball.

Yes, Mr. Parker was only human... and he did make mistakes. Who hasn't? Gary Brewer, on the other hand, is faultless and we should all worship him.
artyon:

 

[KenpoTess]

Mod Note

No matter what we think of each other.. let's keep the personal comments off the board..
Obviously there's 2 sides of the fence.. Those who think Chow was.. and those that don't.
I just don't understand why the debate.

who cares.. Live for today and let the historians figure out what Yesterday meant.

~Tess
-MT S Mod

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Mod Note

No matter what we think of each other.. let's keep the personal comments off the board..
Obviously there's 2 sides of the fence.. Those who think Chow was.. and those that don't.
I just don't understand why the debate.

who cares.. Live for today and let the historians figure out what Yesterday meant.

~Tess
-MT S Mod

Yes, Tess. There are two sides to the fence.

Occasionally, someone falls off the fence, hits their head on the ground, and gets severe brain damage.

Billy has just pointed out one of the fallen wandering around this thread.

 

[KenpoTess]

brain injuries amongst MA'ers.. Whoda thunk it..

 

[Bill Lear]

brain injuries amongst MA'ers.. Whoda thunk it..

You're right! It's brain damage! It has to be! :whip:

I don't know why I didn't see this before!

 

[Doc]

You're right! It's brain damage! It has to be! :whip:

I don't know why I didn't see this before!

Let's just hope he is true to his word and is through - although if I had a buck for everytime he said he was and continued on. When nobody plays, he even answers his own posts. Could that be construed as "talking to ones self?"

 

[Goldendragon7]

Let's just hope he is true to his word and is through - although if I had a buck for everytime he said he was and continued on. When nobody plays, he even answers his own posts. Could that be construed as "talking to ones self?"

Can ...... I say ...... Can I say ..... Amen Brotha....... I mean..... I mean...... YES, we can only hope! Idiots should have their own playpen LOL..... Oh man..... sometimes I crackmyself up! :boxing::btg::ninja::uzi::xtrmshock:zap::duel::samurai::ripper::goop::sniper:

 

[Kenpodoc]

I vote no.

EPAK starts with Mr. Parker. Mr. Chow was his teacher but that was a different system. Both men trained a remarkable number of influential martial artists.

Jeff

 

[dubljay]

I would also have to vote no on this topic. While I am not as versed in the histories of the arts as the rest of you, however if I understand it correctly it was SGM Parker that broke from tradition and applied a modern "scientific" approach to the arts. It was **** shift into a more "scientific" methodology that makes EPAK (and the branch arts) what they are.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong.


-Josh-

 

[Kenpohermit]

To the "bright guy" who accused Mr. Parker of "stealing" I have 2 points I will say to you.


1. Up until you said that stuff about Mr. Parker there was a chance that someone might have been inclined to be mislead by your ignorant statements
however after those comments you pretty much ended the chances of anyone with a brain being mislead by you, you should have kept from insulting the founder of the system your trying to pretend you know something about.

2. Who do you think OWNS the principles of motion? Who do you think
owns Kenpo that can say Mr. Parker stole it from them? That is the heart of the problem, you assume that Kenpo is owned by some traditional master, it is not. It is not owned by Chow nor by the Chinese nor by the Japanese. People who invent are often inspired by things that does not mean they are stealing specially when they make something better. In my opinion American Kenpo is an improvement on Chow's teachings. Making them better, easier to learn, understand and teach... I would say your statement is "uninformed at best"
and I am biting my tongue with this responce I edited it and took out the many personal insults.

Respectfully
Sami

 

[Bill Lear]

To the "bright guy" who accused Mr. Parker of "stealing" I have 2 points I will say to you.


1. Up until you said that stuff about Mr. Parker there was a chance that someone might have been inclined to be mislead by your ignorant statements
however after those comments you pretty much ended the chances of anyone with a brain being mislead by you, you should have kept from insulting the founder of the system your trying to pretend you know something about.

2. Who do you think OWNS the principles of motion? Who do you think
owns Kenpo that can say Mr. Parker stole it from them? That is the heart of the problem, you assume that Kenpo is owned by some traditional master, it is not. It is not owned by Chow nor by the Chinese nor by the Japanese. People who invent are often inspired by things that does not mean they are stealing specially when they make something better. In my opinion American Kenpo is an improvement on Chow's teachings. Making them better, easier to learn, understand and teach... I would say your statement is "uninformed at best"
and I am biting my tongue with this responce I edited it and took out the many personal insults.

Respectfully
Sami

:idunno: :whip: :asian:

 

[Seig]

Before this goes any further and I have to lock it and suspend anyone....

If it is ED PARKER'S American Kenpo, how can it be anyone else's?

 

[Bill Lear]

THANK YOU!!!
artyon: artyon:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Uhhh, yeah. That pretty much sums it up, ey?

There was stuff in the brai of that man that surpassed what he learned from Chow. As Doc has pointed out on other threads, he also gleaned info from Ark Wong, the Sansoo crew, and other notables from the early days of the arts ni America. Innovation and improvement are also forms of invention. The innovative and inventive mind of Mr. Parker certainly borrowed from multiple informational sources, then did a bang-up job of providing a cohesive model for taking it to new territory. What good is inventing light bulbs without electricity?

Unless, of course, one only invents dim bulbs. But I digress. (Sorry, Gary...I'l try to stay focused).

Regards,

Dave

 

[pete]

Before this goes any further and I have to lock it and suspend anyone....

If it is ED PARKER'S American Kenpo, how can it be anyone else's?

before this becomes a trend, i'll continue to use a standard size type set... you know, not compensating or anything...LOL

here is just a thought though... we kinda look at these trees from top down, and thereby would agree the top spot goes to mr parker... but...

what about looking from the bottom up... the roots of the tree... which would have to include chow, wong, wing-woo, etc.

pete

 

[Kenpodoc]

before this becomes a trend, i'll continue to use a standard size type set... you know, not compensating or anything...LOL

here is just a thought though... we kinda look at these trees from top down, and thereby would agree the top spot goes to mr parker... but...

what about looking from the bottom up... the roots of the tree... which would have to include chow, wong, wing-woo, etc.

pete

Agreed, the tap root is prabably Chow. I still wouldn't consider Chow in the lineage of EPAK. He is part of its history. It's all semantics and to me. not terribly important.

I do get ruffled when someone suggests that Parker stole his art. He clearly credits Mr. Chow as his teacher and his initial inspiration. In my experience Hawaian Kenpo is clearly different from EPAK. It is harder, more Okinawan in style. I respect it, but it is clearly not EPAK. Even if some of the techniques were borrowed from Mr.Chow they were changed and no longer the same art. The early movies of Mr. Parker and Mr. Sullivan clearly show only distant relationship to the later techniques. They are superficially similar but different in many important ways.

When I look at my lineage I consider Mr. Hatfield my teacher. He is a student of Mr. Wedlakes. He had other instructors and he acknowleges those instructors but his primary influence is Mr. Wedlake. Mr. Wedlake was a student of Mr. Parker. He also had other instructors and treats them with respect in his books. He inevitably reminds us that Mr. Parker changed the way he looked at martial arts and tries to teach us what he learned from Mr. Parker. Mr. Parker, however was not trying to teach what he learned from Mr. Chow. He was trying to teach that conglomeration of information that he metamorphasized into a new art. For that reason, I put him as the trunk of the EPAK tree (to borrow the metaphor.) He had roots but those roots are outside of the EPAK lineage.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. Maybe it's time to look up the word, "lineage."

2. "Good poets borrow. Great ones steal." Shakespeare was a great thief. It's all bricolage.

3. "All Mr. Parker did," was to take what was always already there in martial arts, organize it decently, and map out a rational system of teaching what he figured out.

4. For some, this is commercialization; others call that democratization. Both are true.

5. I dunno, I'm more impressed by the man's intellectual achievement every time I train or teach.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

1. Maybe it's time to look up the word, "lineage."QUOTE]

1. Summarized From Miriam Webster On-line:
Main Entry: 1lin·e·age
Pronunciation: 'li-nE-ij also 'li-nij
Function: noun
1 descent in a line from a common progenitor
2 a group of individuals tracing descent from a common ancestor; especially : such a group of persons whose common ancestor is regarded as its founder

So, if you take definition 1, then Chow is in the lineage; if you take definition 2, then Chow is not.

From which I conclude that this thread is incorrectly titled. It is not about Chow or Parker (Or the Tracy's or Mitose or Juchnick or Emperado or any othe Kenpoist). It is about the preferred definition of the word lineage.