Chow is in lineage of EPK????

[GAB]

Hi Bill Lear,

Farmers only started planting in the last few years in regard's to the age of this planet...See we can never agree, on this or anything, with that type of thought pattern...

I mentioned Kenpo Karate, I did not forget it...Red and black letters same as the Author... Law of the Fist and Empty Hand would be a sub title the way I read it...

I just started reading Jamie Seabrook's new PDF Book... Gives 10% to Professor Chow...LOL...

His Judo teacher was probably just as hurt as Professor Chow by being discarded and not given respect...Might be the reason there is so much skepticisim about (Chow) him actually signing the certificate given to Ed Parker. Not my thoughts go to the "Kara Ho Thread". It will be verified...

I have no problem with Ed Parker and American Kenpo and all the other Kenpos as far as that goes, About the only one that does not give respect to Professor Chow is Ed Parkers Kenpo...Interesting to say the least...

What does GM Larry Tatum have to say on the subject???


Regards,Gary

 

[Brian Jones]

Mark me down as one who originally said no to Chow in the lineage. Soley because I am not sure where lineage begins and ends. Why stop with Chow? Do we include Mr. Parker's Judo instructor's teachers? Just how far back do we go? I wonder if the comprimise is that Mr. parker's lineage goes back as far as you can go (if anyone cares about ths sort of thing) but EPAK's lineage starts with Mr. Parker.

Brian Jones

 

[Doc]

Yeah, so Isaac Newton "discovered" gravity purportedly because an apple fell on his head giving him the "seed" or idea. So I guess an apple is in the lineage of Newtonian Physics.

At some point Mr. Lear, you just have to say - Duh!

 

[Kenpohermit]

Is Professor Chow in the lineage of American Kenpo? NO!

Was Professor Chow one of Mr. Parker's teachers? yes

Do I have to be "humble" because other countries have a longer history then
the United Stated of America? HELL NO!

Do I have to include Professor Chow in the lineage of American Kenpo because
those who study other systems think American Kenpo needs to be subservent to
the older traditional systems? HELL NO!

Did Mr. Parker need a 700 year lineage to anceint samurai warriors in order to
create a valid system of martial art? NO, because he could knock you on your ****!

In the end, do you have to travel to asia to learn the true spirit of the martial arts because "dumb ol americans dun no notin"? NO, because we will knock you anceint tradition and all on your ****!

Damb it I love this country and I love American Kenpo!
(created by the one and only founder Mr. Parker)


Respectfully (but not without some Pride)
Sami

 

[The Kai]

Actually Ed Parker always acknowledges Chow as his teacher. what's the beef?

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi Folks!
I started reading this thread and I was amazed that "certain Individuals" will not give Prof. Chow his due listing as one of the main contributors to what we now know as "Ed Parker's American Kenpo" [EPAK]. As someone who has worked with several martial artists who either trained with Prof Chow or his students, I always see elements that obviously were used by Mr. Parker as the foundation for what would become "American Kenpo". Whether it was raking strikes or double strikes or being aware of "every block is a strike,every strike is a block" these aspects are intergral to what American Kenpo is today. Simply stated, Mr. Parker got his Black Belt from Prof.Chow and irregardless of personal differences they may have had, Mr. Parker always gave credit to Prof. Chow and was even at his funeral in Hawaii in 1981. To not include Prof. Chow as a keystone in the development of American Kenpo is a gross breach of the history of kenpo in general and specifically Ed Parker's American Kenpo.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

But then the next logicle question would be should one seek out Chow's art for a deeper understanding, and I think the answer to that question would be "No; because, it is not the direction we wish to persue."
Sean

Hi Folks!
Dear Sean,
I, for one, HAVE sought out Prof. Chow's art to see where Mr. Parker got his inspiration to create "American Kenpo" and it never ceases to amaze me the ammount of material that was obviously the foundation for EPAK techniques we do to this day! Mr. Parker told me that "Lone Kimono" came from watching Prof. Chow defend himself at a restaurant/bar in Hawaii where Prof. Chow was seated and a guy came up and grabbed Prof. Chow's shirt as he raised a bear bottle to hit the Prof. Chow drove an upward block and broke the man's arm,swung around and buckled the arm,breaking it further as it buckled and chopped the attacker in the throat! As Mr. Parker concluded "..and he never got out of the chair!" This was only one of several examples that he sited as contributions from Prof. Chow's style.
In closing, if we had just simply asked Mr. Parker more about where his inspirations came from, then we would delagate alot more than a simple "10%" to Prof. chow's contributions to the EPAK system.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[GAB]

Yeah, so Isaac Newton "discovered" gravity purportedly because an apple fell on his head giving him the "seed" or idea. So I guess an apple is in the lineage of Newtonian Physics.

At some point Mr. Lear, you just have to say - Duh!

Hi Duh,

I wonder where the other 70+% are at?? Probably hanging with OFK...He is smarter then the rest of the 70+% who voted that Chow should be part of the lineage...He quit and went to another thread...

Kind of reminds me of the LDS Church, it all started in America and the Garden of Eden is not in the area of the start of the waters that flow through Iraq, it is in Missouri, OK, if you insist.

Kenpo Joe said it a lot better then I have...

Johnny appleseed was there also...I thought he was only in America??

Agnostic by choice...

Regards, Gary

 

[Bill Lear]

Hi Folks!
I started reading this thread and I was amazed that "certain Individuals" will not give Prof. Chow his due listing as one of the main contributors to what we now know as "Ed Parker's American Kenpo" [EPAK]. As someone who has worked with several martial artists who either trained with Prof Chow or his students, I always see elements that obviously were used by Mr. Parker as the foundation for what would become "American Kenpo". Whether it was raking strikes or double strikes or being aware of "every block is a strike,every strike is a block" these aspects are intergral to what American Kenpo is today. Simply stated, Mr. Parker got his Black Belt from Prof.Chow and irregardless of personal differences they may have had, Mr. Parker always gave credit to Prof. Chow and was even at his funeral in Hawaii in 1981. To not include Prof. Chow as a keystone in the development of American Kenpo is a gross breach of the history of kenpo in general and specifically Ed Parker's American Kenpo.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Giving him credit for teaching Mr. Parker is one thing. Giving him credit for the creation of American Kenpo is quite different. I hope this helps.

 

[Doc]

Hi Folks!
Dear Sean,
I, for one, HAVE sought out Prof. Chow's art to see where Mr. Parker got his inspiration to create "American Kenpo" and it never ceases to amaze me the ammount of material that was obviously the foundation for EPAK techniques we do to this day! Mr. Parker told me that "Lone Kimono" came from watching Prof. Chow defend himself at a restaurant/bar in Hawaii where Prof. Chow was seated and a guy came up and grabbed Prof. Chow's shirt as he raised a bear bottle to hit the Prof. Chow drove an upward block and broke the man's arm,swung around and buckled the arm,breaking it further as it buckled and chopped the attacker in the throat! As Mr. Parker concluded "..and he never got out of the chair!" This was only one of several examples that he sited as contributions from Prof. Chow's style.
In closing, if we had just simply asked Mr. Parker more about where his inspirations came from, then we would delagate alot more than a simple "10%" to Prof. chow's contributions to the EPAK system.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Well I did ask him and Ed Parker told me face to face, "MAYBE 3%." Anything else is just being politically correct, or "... out of respect." as he put it. All styles have upward, downward, inward, outward blocks, so there is a commonality between all the arts. YOU may choose to delegate more than "10%," I do not having known the man since 1963, and he didn't either based on our conversations.

Ed Parker acknowledged Chow was his only teacher and DID credit him with the "INSPIRATION" to pursue an art based on modern day empty hand "SELF DEFENSE," unlike most other traditional arts of the day. He DID NOT credit Chow for the physical execution of what came to be first "Chinese Kenpo" when he left the Chow influenced "Kenpo Karate" roots, or any of his many forms of "American Kenpo" he later developed, including the commercial version most of you do now.

Many of the "Ancients" (Senior to your seniors) like myself do not teach that form of kenpo and we are well aware it bears no relationship to anything Chow did beyond the superficial commonality of most arts that kick and strike. In as much the commercial Kenpo came much later in the seventies, I don't see any Chow relationship other than the obvious there either.

I respect Chow's place in our HISTORY which is quite significant. By all accounts he was one hell of a martial artist on many levels OF THE DAY, and was more than competent. He wasn't call "Thunderbolt" for "nothing." I for one being the heretic I am, credit just as much Sijo Adriano Emperado for the ultimate path and development of Parker's direction. Clearly Sijo supported Parker long after Chow was "out of the picture" and I know Parker had much respect for Sijo, even when his relationship with Chow "soured." Parker was always hurt by Chow's action because he felt he had kept all of his promises to Chow, and even attempted to bring Chow to the mainland as he had promised.

I respect what Parker told me, and I respect where what I was taught came from - and it wasn't Chow, Mitose, or anyone else. I can, like everyone else, respect the teachings of my instructor without disrespecting Chow. These are two mutually exclusive situations.

Some are enamored with history and lineage for legitimacy. If you do American Kenpo your HISTORY pretty much ends with Chow. If you are looking for your PEDEGREE lineage, it stops with whomever taught you, and only if he mutually CLAIMS YOU.

No you weren't - Thanks.

 

[Bill Lear]

Yeah, so Isaac Newton "discovered" gravity purportedly because an apple fell on his head giving him the "seed" or idea. So I guess an apple is in the lineage of Newtonian Physics.

At some point Mr. Lear, you just have to say - Duh!

You're right. :asian:

 

[GAB]

Hi all,

Well we have gone from hither to yon, been a good discussion, no one is trying to change anyones mind here but if you are in a democracy and we are...

The 70%+ are the ones that are the silent majority and since none of them knew Ed Parker like you did Doc, I guess they are all wrong also...

So with Doc resorting to drawing the big gun... I still stand by my posts...

Take care, Regards, Gary

 

[Ray]

Kind of reminds me of the LDS Church, it all started in America and the Garden of Eden is not in the area of the start of the waters that flow through Iraq, it is in Missouri, OK, if you insist.

That is completely off the subject. It probably should be in a different area of postings; if at all here. The discussion of whether Chow is in the EPAK lineage or not is not furthered by that comment.

As an analogy it is not a good one. There is no question as to whether Parker or Chow existed; they both did. For your analogy: you have the Garden of Eden for which existence is debatable. Then you have the whole argument that Noah built an ark in preparation for a world wide flood and when the waters receeded, his ark found Mt. Ararat; not too far from where his ark started. I would have thought that the ark would have travelled a little farther. If the ark did travel during the world wide flood, it conceivably could have been able to travel the distance of the Atlantic and the additional distance. Although we have no way of knowing what the ocean currents might have been doing during this flood, but Heyerdahl was able to cross the atlantic in 57 days using a boat made of reeds.

But back to the discussion. Anyone can read that Parker thought highly of Chow, but history records that Parker made the analysis and breakthroughs that made American Kenpo what it is. Certainly there is no insult in Chow to say such a thing. If he was the awesome martial artist that it is said he was then he was. Parker created a system and named principles; and popularized Kenpo (quite an accomplishment for someone who was LDS, no?).

Newton wasn't slighted by Einstein's accomplishments and the teachers of neither are very famous. But both Chow and Parker are famous. Let Chow have his place as a martial artist who was renowned, and taught some pretty famous martial artists in addition to Parker. Let Parker have his place as the man who revolutionized kenpo.

 

[Kenpohermit]

Kenpojoe I dont think anyone who said Chow was not in the lineage of American Kenpo was trying in any way to be rude to Chow or to not include him in American Kenpo's history. Mr. Parker already included him in the history for those who think American Kenpo does not give him credit (go read infinite insights volume 1)...However the only reason I am pushing the issue is it has to do with peoples ignorant comments about American Kenpo as a whole not giving Chow the respect he deserves, that is a load of BS. It reminds me of those kinds of people who insist that pure martial arts only exists if it comes from an Asian Master, those people get under my skin and thus why I have been vocal about it. By the way Kenpojoe this is me Sam aka "zen"

American Kenpo's founder was Ed Parker, all I am saying is it was not Chow who founded American Kenpo, he probably had a huge influence in its creation being Mr. Parker's teacher but... In every lineage of a martial art I have ever looked into always started the lineage with the founder and included the founders teachers as only part of the history or simply left them out and said the founder was inspired by the heavens.

Respectfully
Sami

 

[GAB]

That is completely off the subject. It probably should be in a different area of postings; if at all here. The discussion of whether Chow is in the EPAK lineage or not is not furthered by that comment.

As an analogy it is not a good one. There is no question as to whether Parker or Chow existed; they both did. For your analogy: you have the Garden of Eden for which existence is debatable. Then you have the whole argument that Noah built an ark in preparation for a world wide flood and when the waters receeded, his ark found Mt. Ararat; not too far from where his ark started. I would have thought that the ark would have travelled a little farther. If the ark did travel during the world wide flood, it conceivably could have been able to travel the distance of the Atlantic and the additional distance. Although we have no way of knowing what the ocean currents might have been doing during this flood, but Heyerdahl was able to cross the atlantic in 57 days using a boat made of reeds.
****

Hi Ray,

My comment was put forth because Doc brought up his comment about Newton and the apple, which was way off topic so I did that one to be able to stir someone awake to comment on my statement. So I then could comment like I am doing, It was a bait similar to Doc's comment.

Now your comment is even further, but that is fine with me. You are content in what you say, I am fine with what I am speaking...

****

But back to the discussion. Anyone can read that Parker thought highly of Chow, but history records that Parker made the analysis and breakthroughs that made American Kenpo what it is. Certainly there is no insult in Chow to say such a thing. If he was the awesome martial artist that it is said he was then he was. Parker created a system and named principles; and popularized Kenpo (quite an accomplishment for someone who was LDS, no?).

Newton wasn't slighted by Einstein's accomplishments and the teachers of neither are very famous. But both Chow and Parker are famous. Let Chow have his place as a martial artist who was renowned, and taught some pretty famous martial artists in addition to Parker. Let Parker have his place as the man who revolutionized kenpo.

****

Sure he was (Newton), he was slighted by Doc's comment, But Doc slights quite a bit and still gets away with it, where others don't seem to be able...That also is fine with me since it proves that this is not as civil as some like to pretend...

Parker created a good system and he called it American Kenpo...
He begged borrowed and stole much of what he used, pretty simple in my take of things...

Since Doc wants to pull out Parkers name and say I was there and we talked about this and that so therefore I am right and you are wrong...Well there is no way of going into that den, since it is a bait..

Well I was around at that particular time in the San Fernando Valley and other locations very close. I will say this, I had personal experience also with meeting (on the pulpit Ed) So lets not go there...

Chow was in the lineage. Kenpo came to the soon to be American soil, by GM James Mitose. Chow was not a founder of American Kenpo but he was surly part of the lineage...

Like I said this is a democracy and 70+% say it is in their opinion part of the lineage, that is good enough for me...Like Doc said its American and proud of it, well so is the LDS Church so be proud of that also, but it still does not change the facts... The truth is the truth and 70%+ will attest to that...

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Actuaaly Doc did'nt really slight anybody. he offered an opinion and a bird eye view. If you don't want to accept either one that is your problem



"He begged borrowed and stole much of what he used, pretty simple in my take of things". That statement is a slight (IMHO). Pretty simple? EDAK has created some great fighters thru the years.

So you figure 70% of people think Chow is in the lineage...What's your point???

 

[tshadowchaser]

Ladies and gentelmen may we please stay on topic and leave the personal thoughts about each other and thoughts that off subject off this thread.

 

[Ray]

he was slighted by Doc's comment, But Doc slights quite a bit and still gets away with it, where others don't seem to be able...That also is fine with me since it proves that this is not as civil as some like to pretend...

I hope I didn't seem uncivil when responding to your comments. My issue isn't anyone's view on how important Chow was or Parker was; I never met either but I am very happy to have learned what kenpo I do know (and hope to learn more).

My issue was the comment about the LDS church's belief that the Garden of Eden was in the Americas. It was a huge decision for me to join the LDS church in 2000--now I hear off-hand remarks in the oddest places. Take, for example, a business mgt prof who was explaining how we're all economically interrelated: He says as he draws on the board "This guy over here loses his job. Now he has to cancel his cable subscription. And when his wife shops, hell, let's say he's a Mormon and he has ten wives..."

Parker created a good system and he called it American Kenpo...He begged borrowed and stole much of what he used, pretty simple in my take of things...

I once thought to take Judo classes near Moline, Iowa. The man who ran the studio asked me about my background; when I mentioned Kenpo he also said Parker stole much of what he used. He seemed pretty angry about it--I don't know why he was.

...I had personal experience also with meeting (on the pulpit Ed) So lets not go there...

You've picqued my interest. Send me a PM if you like, but I'd like to hear more of what you mean about the "pulpit."

Chow was in the lineage. Kenpo came to the soon to be American soil, by GM James Mitose. Chow was not a founder of American Kenpo but he was surly part of the lineage...

Okay.

Like I said this is a democracy and 70+% say it is in their opinion part of the lineage, that is good enough for me...Like Doc said its American and proud of it, well so is the LDS Church so be proud of that also, but it still does not change the facts... The truth is the truth and 70%+ will attest to that...

Okay. You knew Parker and Doc knew Parker and you have different opinions. It's plain to me that whether Chow was a part of the lineage is opinion...facts aren't made truth by popular vote.

I do enjoy hearing the opinions of people like you and Doc; people who were there and have a personal knowledge. Even if you guys do disagree. So keep it up.

 

[The Kai]

Except GAB never actually met Parker...

 

[Ray]

Except GAB never actually met Parker...

Since Doc wants to pull out Parkers name and say I was there and we talked about this and that so therefore I am right and you are wrong...Well there is no way of going into that den, since it is a bait..

Well I was around at that particular time in the San Fernando Valley and other locations very close. I will say this, I had personal experience also with meeting (on the pulpit Ed) So lets not go there...

I must have mis-interpreted what he meant then. To me it sounds like he said he met Ed Parker; it sounded to me like he went to church with Parker.