Can you tell me anything about the logic behind chambering punches?

[Martial D]

Developing that base could be replaced with boxing's approach, but then you'd need to work in boxing footwork to take advantage of what boxing does. At what point are you just doing boxing, instead?

Boxing is not only the style of hitting and not getting hit with the hands, but also the result of hundreds of years of grinding away through competition, taking from everything that furthers that cause and innovating what did not yet exist. It's obviously not the be all end all of fighting which consists of many other elements as we all know.

But when speaking of hands and hand techniques..we start boxing when we want to take that element of fighting seriously..and not a moment before

 

[oftheherd1]

Correct. What does a hip-chambered punch teach? Certainly not to fight that way! But one learns where the power comes from when one cannot arm-punch. One learns body movement (tai sabaki), trapping, center of gravity, and power generation. Once those lessons are natural to the body, it no longer matters where the arms are. I can stand in an upright position, guard my head, and throw a leading jab that generates power from my shoulder, hip, knees, and body rotation, and where might I have learned that?

People take a random aspect of training in an art they do not train in, fail to grasp the point of it, and pronounce it useless. It certainly is useless - for them.

Agreed. Happens a lot here on RFF as well as other places..

One other thing I was taught was that punching from the camber position as the opposite arm moves back into the camber position adds power from action/reaction, and if there is an opponent behind you you may well catch him in the solar plexus. You see it in other moves as well.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Agreed. Happens a lot here on RFF as well as other places..

One other thing I was taught was that punching from the camber position as the opposite arm moves back into the camber position adds power from action/reaction, and if there is an opponent behind you you may well catch him in the solar plexus. You see it in other moves as well.

I dearly love an open hand upper body block where the block becomes a grasp, the 'reverse' punch pulls the offending hand down to the waist (that 'elbow in the solar plexus', but from the front) and the opposite side punch goes right into the miscreant's face, which he is in the process of feeding to you.

 

[CB Jones]

As for the debate about how to punch, to me, it's kind of like listening to Political Parties argue over, well, everything. And to each their own, more power to them.

Wise onlookers know they're listening to a debate on the cleaning of the elephant stall and the donkey stall. Amount being the biggest difference. Bring a good broom and shovel.

This thread reminds me of cooking Gumbo.

You can go to Louisiana and ask 10 chefs how they make gumbo and you will get 10 different versions with most of them claiming that their way is the best.

 

[Martial D]

This thread reminds me of cooking Gumbo.

You can go to Louisiana and ask 10 chefs how they make gumbo and you will get 10 different versions with most of them claiming that their way is the best.

That would only be true if the gumbo's sole purpose was objectively measurable through competition.

If that were so, we would know that some is better than others, with some certainty.

 

[CB Jones]

That would only be true if the gumbo's sole purpose was objectively measurable through competition.

If that were so, we would know that some is better than others, with some certainty.

At the end of the day, the method of preparing the gumbo is moot. What is important is that you have good gumbo.

 

[Hanzou]

At the end of the day, the method of preparing the gumbo is moot. What is important is that you have good gumbo.

You consider drilling a technique over and over again only to completely discard it in application to be "good"?

 

[WaterGal]

Back to the original point though: MMA guys fight for a living. It's quite telling that they view that family of techniques as useless as well. I'm quite sure a professional fighter knows exactly what they're seeing when someone is throwing a telegraphed, easily countered punch from the hip.

As someone who spent their formative years in traditional karate, I find it laughable that some people simply can't admit that a large amount of techniques in traditional martial arts are simply archaic and inefficient and should be discarded for superior methods. It's almost like dealing with a religion. The founder of their Asian martial arts style of choice might as well be Jesus or Muhammad spreading divine martial wisdom that must never be challenged or discarded.

I would suggest considering the fact that professional MMA fighters are not typical martial arts students, and that the things that a 19-year old aspiring pro fighter needs to practice to get into the UFC may be somewhat different from what your average chubby 9-year old needs to practice when they enroll in a martial arts class for the first time.

Karate and TKD, specifically, were developed in their modern form partly to be taught to children in school in a big group lesson as a form of character development and physical education. In my experience, young kids have a hard time learning to punch well. They tend to want to just kind of raise up their arm and jab it forward a little from the arm, without using their body hardly at all. They often don't keep the wrist straight, maybe let the arm hang out there, etc. So having them explicitly practice twisting the hips as they punch, thrust the arm out straight, and bring their arm back quickly after the punch is over, can help them do it better.

Now, somebody who's trying to be a pro fighter is probably some of the best of the best, right? They don't need these basic training methods. But your average beginner child might need them. It's like what someone else said about training wheels. They don't use training wheels on the Tour de France, but that doesn't mean that training wheels aren't useful for average kindergarten kids learning to ride a bike. Or, for example, a professional football player might not get a lot of out of a Zumba for Seniors fitness class at the gym - but that doesn't mean it's useless for your 70-year old mom who just wants to keep from needing a walker.

 

[CB Jones]

You consider drilling a technique over and over again only to completely discard it in application to be "good"?

I coach jr high baseball on the side. We do a ton of drills of individual techniques that you don't necessarily do in a game.....but the drills improve basic fundamentals. So yes if a drill can improve a technique or fundamental even though it is not used in actual play.....I would support the drill.


If a drill or a technique is gonna help a student improve on a fundamental...absolutely I would consider it to be good even though it was discarded as the student progresses.

 

[CB Jones]

You consider drilling a technique over and over again only to completely discard it in application to be "good"?

In the end, I don't care what drills someone used to develop a good straight punch....It only matters that they can throw a good straight punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

when someone is throwing a telegraphed, easily countered punch from the hip. ...

Not all MA systems punch from the waist. The Zimenquen system punch from hands next to the legs. There is no "from the hip" punch in that system.

IMO, to always have to punch from the hip is a bad idea. In fighting, most of the time you just have to punch from wherever your hand is. When you use "comb hair" to redirect your opponent's arm, your hand starting punching position can be higher than your opponent's head.

 

[Hanzou]

I would suggest considering the fact that professional MMA fighters are not typical martial arts students, and that the things that a 19-year old aspiring pro fighter needs to practice to get into the UFC may be somewhat different from what your average chubby 9-year old needs to practice when they enroll in a martial arts class for the first time.

Except boxing is taught to children throughout the world. In some parts of the United States, Boxing is a sport taught in public school to 6-12th graders. We also shouldn't forget that there's a growing number of kids learning MMA, and they're also learning western Boxing in those gyms. I have little doubt that those children learning Boxing/MMA have any problems with punching properly, or have any aspirations to become pro fighters (though they could in the future). This includes the 9 year old chubby kids.

In short, I simply don't buy the argument that people are trained in that fashion in Karate or TKD because it was designed for kids. They train that way because those are the traditional techniques, and those techniques are continued to be taught despite them having little practical value.

 

[yak sao]

A little different take...
In Wing Tsun we punch from the center, yet we still use the chambered position in our forms.

Our first form primarily trains one arm at a time while the other arm is held back in a chambered position.
We do not rest the arm on the side, instead it is held back with the muscles of the back and rear shoulder.
This is done to allow focus on the moving arm while simultaneously working the chambered arm. This starts to develop the concept of simultaneously using one arm to clear, deflect, etc, while the opposite arm attacks.

Also, by holding the arm back in a chambered position, we are exercising the muscles that support our various arm positions, thus building a stronger foundation for them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Boxing is not only the style of hitting and not getting hit with the hands, but also the result of hundreds of years of grinding away through competition, taking from everything that furthers that cause and innovating what did not yet exist. It's obviously not the be all end all of fighting which consists of many other elements as we all know.

But when speaking of hands and hand techniques..we start boxing when we want to take that element of fighting seriously..and not a moment before

I disagree with the implicit notion that someone can't train striking with other methods AND be serious about it.

I tend to think boxing approach is overall "better", but that's by degrees. I've seen some solid skills developed, even by hobbyists, using TMA methods, too.

 

[Hanzou]

I coach jr high baseball on the side. We do a ton of drills of individual techniques that you don't necessarily do in a game.....but the drills improve basic fundamentals. So yes if a drill can improve a technique or fundamental even though it is not used in actual play.....I would support the drill.

If a drill or a technique is gonna help a student improve on a fundamental...absolutely I would consider it to be good even though it was discarded as the student progresses.

Do you teach someone how to shoot a basketball, force them to drill that method of shooting a basketball, and then allow them shoot the ball a completely different way in the actual game?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You consider drilling a technique over and over again only to completely discard it in application to be "good"?

You're back to assuming the "technique" is the punch in the drill. I'll go back to my point about using animal walks for training.

 

[Hanzou]

Not all MA systems punch from the waist. The Zimenquen system punch from hands next to the legs. There is no "from the hip" punch in that system.

Looks like a great way to get socked in the face.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you teach someone how to shoot a basketball, force them to drill that method of shooting a basketball, and then allow them shoot the ball a completely different way in the actual game?

When I coached soccer/football, we sometimes used a drill where players would dribble a ball to a point, stop it dead as fast as they could, and switch to another ball (left by the previous player). You don't get to switch balls while playing, but that drill did develop some useful footwork.

You are deeply focused on what you don't like about this drill, and ignoring what folks are telling you it's used for. If you don't like it, that's fine. There are drills I don't like, so I don't use them for myself or my students. You should probably just let it go, man.

 

[CB Jones]

Do you teach someone how to shoot a basketball, force them to drill that method of shooting a basketball, and then allow them shoot the ball a completely different way in the actual game?

There are numerous basketball drills that utilize techniques that are used to improve fundamentals....those drills are merely to improve fundamentals and you would never do them in a actual game.

Shooting, dribbling, passing etc....

Again if it helps to teach fundamentals it is a useful tool.

 

[Hanzou]

When I coached soccer/football, we sometimes used a drill where players would dribble a ball to a point, stop it dead as fast as they could, and switch to another ball (left by the previous player). You don't get to switch balls while playing, but that drill did develop some useful footwork.

You are deeply focused on what you don't like about this drill, and ignoring what folks are telling you it's used for. If you don't like it, that's fine. There are drills I don't like, so I don't use them for myself or my students. You should probably just let it go, man.

LoL! Okay, then what "techniques" is the Reverse Punch drill used for?

There are numerous basketball drills that utilize techniques that are used to improve fundamentals....those drills are merely to improve fundamentals and you would never do them in a actual game.

Shooting, dribbling, passing etc....

Again if it helps to teach fundamentals it is a useful tool.

You didn't answer the question.