Can you tell me anything about the logic behind chambering punches?

[Gerry Seymour]

Ya, my old wc sifu liked to use that as reasoning for pulling the shot back to chamber too.

Unfortunately that sort of straight back elbow is completely useless in an actual altercation.

Unless there's somebody trying to climb on back there. I haven't had that happen since middle school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What? Unless you are trying to redefine what the term means, the ''chamber" is under the shoulder or at the hip. You already know this so I'm not even sure why you are arguing.

Are you really trying to tell me a tkd or karate reverse punch isn't an arm punch? (Especially when compared to how the same rear hand straight is thrown by a boxer)

Define what you mean by "arm punch", because a Karate reverse punch (as I've learned it in 2 styles of Karate, and in NGA) is not an "arm-only" punch - it drives power from the hips (and those from the leg).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's an archiac punching method that is eclipsed by modern methods. There's next to zero value in performing it outside of "tradition" or to win kata competitions.

The punching methods don't vary that dramatically, Hanzou. It's the training to learn them that's quite different.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm talking about this;

Modern methods don't do that.

Traditional methods don't do that when actually punching in sparring, either. It's a drill to build certain characteristics, not really a template for a punch in action.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What? Unless you are trying to redefine what the term means, the ''chamber" is under the shoulder or at the hip. You already know this so I'm not even sure why you are arguing.

I am not redefining chambering, you are misunderstanding it.

Are you really trying to tell me a tkd or karate reverse punch isn't an arm punch? (Especially when compared to how the same rear hand straight is thrown by a boxer)

That is precisely what I am saying. A karate reverse punch is not an arm punch, by which I mean the power is generated by the entire body, not just the muscles of the arm. These skills are learned by practicing the hip-chambered punch. Subsequent punching is also chambered - because it is not as obvious to you as a hip-chambered punch does not mean it is not chambered.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Naw, that's not really true. A good punch comes from where it is. The power comes from the springy back leg, hips, and shoulder. Pulling the fist back to the hip or high chamber position only helps if the power is coming from throwing the arm...aka arm punching.

The "chamber" in sparring (whether boxing or traditional Karate) is at the guard position. We can all punch without that chamber (not having room to accelerate the arm), but we lose power. Our (all of us, so far as I know) have our strongest punches when delivering from "chamber" (again, that guard position).

 

[Martial D]

Define what you mean by "arm punch", because a Karate reverse punch (as I've learned it in 2 styles of Karate, and in NGA) is not an "arm-only" punch - it drives power from the hips (and those from the leg).

And there's a reason those styles aren't known for power punching. I mean, sure, you can add hip rotation and push off into a chambered punch, but the act of chambering it isn't adding any power.

 

[Martial D]

The "chamber" in sparring (whether boxing or traditional Karate) is at the guard position. We can all punch without that chamber (not having room to accelerate the arm), but we lose power. Our (all of us, so far as I know) have our strongest punches when delivering from "chamber" (again, that guard position).

Ok, so you are redefining it. Carry on then.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Ya, my old wc sifu liked to use that as reasoning for pulling the shot back to chamber too.

Unfortunately that sort of straight back elbow is completely useless in an actual altercation.

Again, I beg to differ. Once of the reasons we pull the arm back like that is to teach body mechanics. By practicing pulling the opposing arm back hard, fast, and straight, we teach power generation that involves hip and body rotation.

In addition, pulling back the arm sharply to the hips teaches a form of grapple which allows the experienced practitioner to grasp an available incoming arm or hand and pull it sharply in and down, which pulls the opponent's face directly into the path of the opposite hand punching at the same time. While it is not always possible to grasp an incoming punch or available hand in this manner, when the opportunity presents itself, it is quite devastating. To do it correctly requires the mind-body mechanics that are taught using that sharp pull to the rear that you dismiss as useless.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And there's a reason those styles aren't known for power punching. I mean, sure, you can add hip rotation and push off into a chambered punch, but the act of chambering it isn't adding any power.

As I said in another post, "chambering" in action is returning to the guard position, and we all do that. The drill that chambers at the hip/ribs/shoulder is just that: a drill. It exaggerates the mechanics.

I don't think any of that is the reason many TMA folks don't generate as much power. It's the root of the back leg. I think (and this is supposition) this comes from earlier, when they all (including Karate, which now sometimes doesn't) recognized takedowns, and probably practiced them. So they held weight back a bit for stability. Boxing long ago stopped worrying with that, and brings power all the way up that back leg on power strikes, shifting more weight into it. That's less risky in boxing, and we see a bit less of it in MMA, though they often use the boxing mechanics (so we see the shift at the leg) because it's more mobile.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And there's a reason those styles aren't known for power punching. I mean, sure, you can add hip rotation and push off into a chambered punch, but the act of chambering it isn't adding any power.

The act of chambering a punch at the hips is a training method, used to confer a skill, which it does. That is the point, which at this point I must assume you are missing intentionally.

It's like saying that training wheels are not useful to riding a bicycle. That is correct, they are used to help teach riding a bicycle. Once the skills are conveyed, we take them off the bike. That does not make them useless.

 

[Martial D]

I am not redefining chambering, you are misunderstanding it.



That is precisely what I am saying. A karate reverse punch is not an arm punch, by which I mean the power is generated by the entire body, not just the muscles of the arm. These skills are learned by practicing the hip-chambered punch. Subsequent punching is also chambered - because it is not as obvious to you as a hip-chambered punch does not mean it is not chambered.

I made it clear I (as well as the OP) was talking about a hip chamber/shoulder chamber. In my very first response I specified there is no need to do this, and a good punch starts where it is(the guard)

Now it seems you are agreeing with me, and defining the chamber as throwing from the guard.

You are arguing my point and playing language games lol

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As I said in another post, "chambering" in action is returning to the guard position, and we all do that. The drill that chambers at the hip/ribs/shoulder is just that: a drill. It exaggerates the mechanics.

He said so himself - he is just refusing to see that as the act of chambering the punch, or that chambering at the hip is used to teach those skills.

I don't think any of that is the reason many TMA folks don't generate as much power. It's the root of the back leg. I think (and this is supposition) this comes from earlier, when they all (including Karate, which now sometimes doesn't) recognized takedowns, and probably practiced them. So they held weight back a bit for stability. Boxing long ago stopped worrying with that, and brings power all the way up that back leg on power strikes, shifting more weight into it. That's less risky in boxing, and we see a bit less of it in MMA, though they often use the boxing mechanics (so we see the shift at the leg) because it's more mobile.

There is more to it than that, and I would have to include the tradition of fighting on a non-uniform, often slippery surface, and rules that apply to a boxing match that would not apply outside the ring. In general, though, I agree. If pure power going one direction is the desire, the boxer knows how to make that happen.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I made it clear I (as well as the OP) was talking about a hip chamber/shoulder chamber. In my very first response I specified there is no need to do this, and a good punch starts where it is(the guard)

Now it seems you are agreeing with me, and defining the chamber as throwing from the guard.

You are arguing my point and playing language games lol

No. I am pointing out that what you think of as a useless punch, the punch chambered at the hip, is a training method and not a fighting method, and that the lessons taught by the hip-chambered punch are transferable to any sort of punching, which even you described when talking about 'springiness' as I recall.

You are criticizing something you have no understanding of and then complaining that I don't accept your definition of something you do not understand.

 

[Martial D]

Traditional methods don't do that when actually punching in sparring, either. It's a drill to build certain characteristics, not really a template for a punch in action.

What characteristics besides bad habits and mechanics is that building, specifically? You are training your muscle memory to move your fist the entire distance from the shoulder out with a stationary trunk. This is the very definition of arm punching.

 

[Martial D]

No. I am pointing out that what you think of as a useless punch, the punch chambered at the hip, is a training method and not a fighting method, and that the lessons taught by the hip-chambered punch are transferable to any sort of punching, which even you described when talking about 'springiness' as I recall.

You are criticizing something you have no understanding of and then complaining that I don't accept your definition of something you do not understand.

LOL, if you say so. I bow to your great and profound understanding. *eyeroll*

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What characteristics besides bad habits and mechanics is that building, specifically? You are training your muscle memory to move your fist the entire distance from the shoulder out with a stationary trunk. This is the very definition of arm punching.

You are training your body to generate power using the shoulders, hips, knees, stance, and body rotation. That is the exact opposite of arm punching. The fist placed at the hips is a reference point and the muscle memory learned will be transferred to a more advantageous position for the hands in an actual altercation.

I am posting this in case others happen upon it. I realize you fail to grasp this concept.

 

[Hanzou]

That is just a drill. Modern methods still utilize punching from a chambered position even if they do not use this particular drill.

No, it goes beyond simply a drill. It is reinforced in multiple techniques and within the kata. That is actually how Karateka are supposed to punch.

If you look at older media of Karate, those nonsensical punches from the hip and the deep stances were supposed to be how a karateka fights. The problem is that Karateka got eaten alive by western boxers, so now you have this psuedo kickboxing going on when katateka actually fight. There is zero reason to drill techniques that you completely discard when you're actually fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

Traditional methods don't do that when actually punching in sparring, either. It's a drill to build certain characteristics, not really a template for a punch in action.

Yes they do. The reverse punch is still considered a viable technique in karate fantasy land.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

My background is more westernized. I have tried practicing punches in the eastern style (hands in chamber position) and I really couldn't see what's so special about it. Many guys that practice MMA agree that it's useless. Nevertheless, I did some research and absorbed some info about the science behind chamber practice. I'd like to hear your opinion too. If you think it's worth including some eastern punches in my workout, what are your arguments?

I'm circling back to the original post in this thread. Forgive me for not having said some of this at first.

My background is more westernized.

Nothing wrong with that. Many of us here are from Western nations, regardless of what we study in the way of martial arts, and it is our background that informs much of what we understand and how we understand it. We seek to put things in terms that make sense to us. Perfectly natural.

I have tried practicing punches in the eastern style (hands in chamber position) and I really couldn't see what's so special about it.

The first problem is that you don't understand what you are doing - not a criticism, but a comment. You are imitating what you see and think you understand what it is for. The comment that there is nothing special about it is correct only if you understand what is being done.

Many guys that practice MMA agree that it's useless.

LOL. Many guys who also do not understand what they see also agree that it is useless.

Nevertheless, I did some research and absorbed some info about the science behind chamber practice. I'd like to hear your opinion too. If you think it's worth including some eastern punches in my workout, what are your arguments?

I would argue that it is indeed useless to incorporate what you have seen and think you understand into your workouts.

A person not trained in the hip-chambered punch might stumble onto the reasoning behind it and the various uses for it. I'm sure it's possible, I'm sure it has been done. It is not what you think it is, I can tell you that. It is, as I mentioned several times in this thread, a training method, a tool. It is not how we fight, despite what some might say.