can cma handle grappling?

[theneuhauser]

im thinking that the system that you choose is like school. after you learn some basics in most everything, your free too pursue your own field of study because that's what you want to learn and thats what you want to do. if you are an expert in mathematics, what are the chances that you will have to someday perform surgery or plead a case in court?
so back on topic, dont change a system, but encourage knowledge of other subject matter.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by theneuhauser

im thinking that the system that you choose is like school. after you learn some basics in most everything, your free too pursue your own field of study because that's what you want to learn and thats what you want to do. if you are an expert in mathematics, what are the chances that you will have to someday perform surgery or plead a case in court?
so back on topic, dont change a system, but encourage knowledge of other subject matter.

Thats a good analogy, but lets remember that we dont pursue our own field of study while in grade school, or even high school. My opinion is to get a good base, then, after grounding yourself go on to concentrate on what works for you.

7sm

 

[theneuhauser]

yeah, that wasnt the best metaphor ive ever used. ill have to work on that one a little. a good base is what though? is it skills in everything from punching to kicking and wrestling and throwing and breaking, etc, etc, etc. or is a good base more like flexibility, stamina, footwork, balance, etc, etc, etc, etc?

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by theneuhauser

yeah, that wasnt the best metaphor ive ever used. ill have to work on that one a little. a good base is what though? is it skills in everything from punching to kicking and wrestling and throwing and breaking, etc, etc, etc. or is a good base more like flexibility, stamina, footwork, balance, etc, etc, etc, etc?

Well, you pose a good question. I guess the statement is quite subjective, however, I think a "good base" is more than merely stamina, stretching, ect ect. I think a good base would be all of the above. Basic techniques involving punching, throws, kicks, grappling, ect, also involving stamina, stretching, speed, ect ect.

I think a good base would most likely take a good few years, at least in most CMA. I don't have much experience outside CMA, but I couldn't imagine it would be much different.

7sm

 

[yilisifu]

It's the same kind of arguement we heard many moons ago from the amateur and pro boxers, insisting that no martial arts person (be it kung-fu, karate, or whatever) could beat them because they knew how to take a punch....

Right.

It's tough to "suck it up" when your rib cage is crushed or your knee's ligaments look like silly string. But THEN they insisted on using boxing "rules."

To quote a great movie....."Rules?? In a knife fight?" I used to have that framed in my school.

Grappler will insist this and that - and we all have to agree to play by their rules - ?????

Let's not forget shuai-jiao which includes both standing techniques AND what is now popularly called "ground fighting." Let's not forget chin-na which includes joint locks, chokes, pins, and seizing techniques.

We don't overly concern ourselves with this matter of ground fighting because, as Chufeng aptly put it, it is unrealistic for self-defense. You cannot afford to be rolling around on the street with one guy and expect his friends to hold up scorecards while you do it.

In ground fighting I would ask, "what's the object?" Is it to make the other guy submit? To choke him out? To kill him? From what I've seen of "ground fighters," it's usually intended to force the opponent into submission.
This is not how traditional martial arts are applied in actual combat. The object in these arts is to kill the enemy as quickly as possible. There are no rules. No submissions. No second place. It isn't UFC or WWF.

It's the real thing. Trust me, if Chinese martial arts practicioners couldn't deal with grapplers, they wouldn't have lasted this long.

 

[theneuhauser]

"It's the real thing. Trust me, if Chinese martial arts practicioners couldn't deal with grapplers, they wouldn't have lasted this long."

great post mr, starr. but what i was getting at with this thread is the question of integration of "wrestling" into the stand up arts. some have more qin na and throws than others, but most are also very lengthy curriculums. so with that thought, i wonder if introducing some "groundfighting" into many of these systems would end up dilluting some other aspect. after all, many of these systems were compiled with full time training in mind, and nowadays very few folks can afford that "luxury" :asian:

 

[yilisifu]

I understand your question, and it is a good one. I very much doubt that any of the arts to which you referring wouldconsider your idea as most of them, as you noted, hav very lengthy curriculums as it is. Adding more would make them that much lengthier.

Additionally, I imagine many of them would regard such training as superfluous and argue that if an enemy is thrown or knocked down, he is to be finished on the ground and no attempt should be made to go down with him and grapple.

If one is thrown down oneself, they would argue, one can rely on the grappling type of training already within their curriculum or theapplication of seizing and attacking vital points.

 

[Matt Stone]

Most CMA have plenty of chin na and shuai chiao techniques already included in their curricula. There are sufficient numbers of techniques and variations that any CMAist should have a fair armory to choose from...

However, if you never take a class or two to get two people rolling on the ground together, the newness of the experience will hamper the person's ability to think on his belly instead of thinking on his feet.

I don't advocate groundfighting training, but like anything, some kind of orientation to the situation can do nothing but help. Get a few people together before or after class, and figure out how you would end up on the ground. Then get there. Then, figure out how you would use what you already know to make the situation come out in your favor. Allow some light stiking, so both parties can get a feel for the fact that hitting occurs when on the ground. Tap the other person on the inside of their thigh if you would have been able to get in a clean groin shot. Incorporate some safe ways to simulate dirty tricks (i.e. biting, eye gouging, etc.), as well as using real life skin grabs, pressure point seizing, etc.

Mix it up and see what happens. We could discuss this for days, but in the final analysis, unless you have to deal with the situation for real you will never know...

Gambarimasu.

 

[7starmantis]

Its funny to read back on some of your posts from a year or so ago and see how different they sound from what you would write today.

I think the grappling question is one that was deffinatly brought to the attention of many with the rise of the UFC and the Gracie's. However, true CMA includes grappling as well, so the question should be, "are you training completely"? In mantis we do heavy standing training, but an amazing amount of ground work as well. I would feel confident on the gorund or standing, although I would most likely attempt to stay on my feet in a fight. If taken to the ground however, I wouldn't resists, but continue the fight with the same principles as a standing fight. The principles of the technique shouldn't change from standing to on the gorund in my opinion.

7sm

 

[InvisibleFist]

I actually think that the issue is not the style, but how it is trained. MOST (not all) CMA schools do not train with the high level of intesity of MMA schools.

MMA'sts train to take punches, take high levels of pain in pain holds, and spend long amount of time on the floor.

Most CMA'st don't train that way.

Honestly I have NO interest in learning groundfighting. Its not that I don't think its effective, I just don't want to spend a couple of hours a week tied up in another man's armpit.

 

[7starmantis]

I actually think that the issue is not the style, but how it is trained. MOST (not all) CMA schools do not train with the high level of intesity of MMA schools.

MMA'sts train to take punches, take high levels of pain in pain holds, and spend long amount of time on the floor.

Most CMA'st don't train that way.

I think that is a common misconception for those with a lack of experience or exposure to true CMA. Most CMA schools I have been in are extremely intense in their training and technique. We have black belts who visist our school throwing up in the intermediate class.

As far as training to take punches, iron body is almost purely CMA. High levels of pain in chin na holds is extremely intense, trust me. I'm not trying to attack you, but I think your point is one from your own point of view without any type of research to use the word "most". I'm training for San Shou which is a full contact type of fighting developed in China. Its extremely intense, don't be fooled by the hype, other people train hard as well, not just MMAist.

7sm

 

[Laxe]

Being a CMA and having a housemate who's a self-confessed MMA, I can safely say from my own experience it's down to how you train in your art. My housemate's done alot of everything while I lean more towards the traditional styles and while he and many other MMA's say that you need to learn all aspects of fighting including groundwork I stand by the old saying "Jack of all trades, master of none".

Also like another previous poster said, CMA's have been around for AGES and were MADE for fighting, it's not just flashy tradition (which Bruce Lee himself denounced TMA off - and is the current reductionist thought of MMA).

But then again, if you train WELL, then you'll be good regardless of your style. I just wish to attain a certain level in my choosen style Fujian White Crane and intend not to be taken down to the ground.

There's alot of depth in CMA's and TMA's than many people realise due to the annoyingly common "I want results now" attitude. The systems are built upon principles and MA's should utilise such principles - THAT is my goal within CMA.

 

[brothershaw]

Grapplers ( or fighting on the ground) like knives has always been a problem. The only thing is now more people are actively learning how to grapple,just like more people are learning filipino knife work. If you dont actively/ and consciously practice (basic)responses to someone trying to uproot you or take you to the ground, the same as practicing responses to a blade attack you may do something useless or nothing at all. What I am saying is if the proper response/action is in your system but you dont know and practice it, it may as well not be there.
So maybe the question should be how often do you practice against someone trying to take you to the ground now that mma and such is so popular? It is as valid as learning how to defend against a kick, grab, punch etc.

 

[Bod]

Very good point. What is the point of stance training for rooting if you never test your stance against attacks to your root? You wouldn't dream of practising blocks all day but never practising those blocks against strikes.

Move around and get tackled a bit. Get tackled high, get tackled low. When you fall down get back up as quickly as possible.

CMA may be able to deal with all manner of grappling attacks, but you won't be able to unless you practise.