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Wes Yager
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Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.
Wes Yager
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Can an underweight man realistically protect himself/fight his way out of a situation?
- Thread starter drewtoby
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lklawson
Grandmaster
Well, due to the fact that nothing he's written thus far has given much reason to take him as a credible source, I don't really see much percentage in further interaction with him.There are some forums where you can argue with trolls, call 'em names, etc., and that can be fun sometimes, but this isn't one of those forums. I don't see this thread going a lot further. Peace favor your sword,Kirk
I just can't believe I've been ignoring this thread. I mean how exciting is it likely to be when some one asks if an 8 stone guy can beat up on an 18 stone MMA fighter? I guess I was wrong! 
My Aikido instructor is like that. Very difficult to stop or escape. I would back him against your street crim any day. It would be interesting to see though. My guy would be about 230 lbs I would imagine. That makes the street crim ... Mmm! ... 460 lb. Impressive, but morbidly obese.
Mmm! No and no. Biggest guy may have a natural advantage but will not always win, or are you exaggerating the difference in size? As for weight class, here you are talking about a sporting contest,not the street. There it is not the size of the dog in the fight. It's the size of the fight in the dog.
We have just gone through the exercise of sport vs traditional. Only a tiny percentage of martial artists aspire to fight in the ring and only a tiny tiny minority make it to the UFC. To suggest that senior practitioners in any style need to prove their ability in the UFC is totally naive.
I would agree that the Sensei respect thing could warrant a thread of its own but your hypothesis is plain wrong. For a start you haven't defined sparring. Do you mean sparring as in boxing, sparring as in judo, sparring as in bunkai or something else again? Some of us don't spar in the conventional sense. I don't claim to be unbeatable. Anyone that can do that is current World Champion and even then he is only better than the person he beat. But I try as hard as I can to best my instructor and my students sure do their best to take me down, and good luck to them when they do. Ultimately my aim is for my students to be better than me. It's not an ego trip.
Good grief! Are you from planet Earth? Some of the toughest guys around train MA and TMA at that. A lot of guys I have trained with have been in prison. Doesn't make them bigger or meaner than the next guy, except maybe in your mind.
Some of the guys I train with are built like the proverbial brick outhouse and they have some great tats.
Why should anyone freeze! Yakusa or other, most are still human.
They don't abandon anything. Our fighting stance when I trained Japanese karate was a natural fighting stance, just like we trained. Pretty much the same as a boxer, just that we fought both stances.
You obviously haven't trained in the right places.
I have never seen 'MA magic'. I've seen lots of crap stuff, but I don't believe in magic.
Hopefully your regular black belt with a minimum of five years training would have a higher skill level WRT fighting than your average tennis player, or the others.
As others have pointed out, there are many spots that boxers or others target. Surprise, surprise, they are all vital points, no magic, and they do work in UFC.
That was a question about skill sets whether anyone would think that that two skill sets were the same, yet you used it as an example in you post above. :idunno:
Guy Bloom has a TMA background that he has modified to be more reality based, just like many of us on MT.
i have had so called experts try their stuff on me too. If they do it right it works, if they don't do it right it doesn't. Just like most things in this life.
Fortunately most fights are with John, poor bugger. And he drinks far too much and his friends let him down. We are really fortunate in Australia. We don't have so many of the strong, drugged psycho killers on our streets.
All styles, boxing, BJJ, judo, karate, aikido etc have kihon. The comment means you have no real idea of the basics of any style. Kata is totally different and means different things to different people. However if I were you I wouldn't talk too much about kata. It is obvious you have no idea of it either.
Oh, we put on pads to, and mouth guards and head protectors etc. We very rarely attack empty air, it doesn't hit back.
OMG! I think you have been watching too many scary movies. Most of our "real" killer criminals are in jail. But you're right. I hope no one gets attacked by a "real"killer criminal either.
But thanks for the entertainment, it's been a lot of fun. :wavey:
My Aikido instructor is like that. Very difficult to stop or escape. I would back him against your street crim any day. It would be interesting to see though. My guy would be about 230 lbs I would imagine. That makes the street crim ... Mmm! ... 460 lb. Impressive, but morbidly obese.
Mmm! No and no. Biggest guy may have a natural advantage but will not always win, or are you exaggerating the difference in size? As for weight class, here you are talking about a sporting contest,not the street. There it is not the size of the dog in the fight. It's the size of the fight in the dog.
We have just gone through the exercise of sport vs traditional. Only a tiny percentage of martial artists aspire to fight in the ring and only a tiny tiny minority make it to the UFC. To suggest that senior practitioners in any style need to prove their ability in the UFC is totally naive.
I would agree that the Sensei respect thing could warrant a thread of its own but your hypothesis is plain wrong. For a start you haven't defined sparring. Do you mean sparring as in boxing, sparring as in judo, sparring as in bunkai or something else again? Some of us don't spar in the conventional sense. I don't claim to be unbeatable. Anyone that can do that is current World Champion and even then he is only better than the person he beat. But I try as hard as I can to best my instructor and my students sure do their best to take me down, and good luck to them when they do. Ultimately my aim is for my students to be better than me. It's not an ego trip.
Good grief! Are you from planet Earth? Some of the toughest guys around train MA and TMA at that. A lot of guys I have trained with have been in prison. Doesn't make them bigger or meaner than the next guy, except maybe in your mind.
Well, well
Its my opinion that mindset is the most important in self-defence. Not complicated technics, foot position etc.
Mindset is crucial, but you need to train the techniques and foot work in the learning stages. Later the technique becomes more fluid to the extent that you don't always recognise it.
Its common sense that the biggest guys win when skill set is identical.
Skill sets are never identical and the biggest guys don't always win.
Why would anyone do traditional MA if he wanted to fight ? The logical thing would be to start boxing, kickb or MMA. The majority of people who start with traditional MA want to learn self defense. They do not wanna do realistic full contact sparring, if so they would of course join boxing or MMA.
I started boxing as a child in the 1950s. My last boxing fight was 1959! I didn't learn boxing to fight. I learned it to stop being bullied. If I wanted to fight MMA in the ring then I might train MMA. But for me and my students for self defence, TMA will do just fine, but thank you for your advice.
Why doesnt criminals train traditional Martial Arts if it really works magic in a street fight ?
Believe me, they do!
Muscle is of course a major part of self defense, only a professional fighter would stand a chance in a fight against a 2 meter tall Strong man competitor, your average club black belt wouldnt stand a chance. The level of a black belt is not relatively any better than a recreational tennisplayer compared to Rafael Nadal.
Just keep taking the tablets.
MA would probably work wonders towards a traditional drunk. I actually belive that.
Good! It has a fair chance of working in a lot of other situations too.
However MA got no chance when the oponent is a seasoned, traumatized, ruthless criminal, used to a hard life in and out of prison. Just the look of his muscular body, tatoos and psycotic eyes would make 99% of black belts freeze.
Some of the guys I train with are built like the proverbial brick outhouse and they have some great tats.
Why should anyone freeze! Yakusa or other, most are still human.
They don't abandon anything. Our fighting stance when I trained Japanese karate was a natural fighting stance, just like we trained. Pretty much the same as a boxer, just that we fought both stances.
You obviously haven't trained in the right places.
Feeling pain is one thing, hitting the right spots is another. As I said above, drunk, on drugs or psycho .. they are still human and still can be beaten. Not to mention the fact that by that time you are also fuelled on adrenalin.
I have never seen 'MA magic'. I've seen lots of crap stuff, but I don't believe in magic.
Hopefully your regular black belt with a minimum of five years training would have a higher skill level WRT fighting than your average tennis player, or the others.
As others have pointed out, there are many spots that boxers or others target. Surprise, surprise, they are all vital points, no magic, and they do work in UFC.
That was a question about skill sets whether anyone would think that that two skill sets were the same, yet you used it as an example in you post above. :idunno:
Guy Bloom has a TMA background that he has modified to be more reality based, just like many of us on MT.
i have had so called experts try their stuff on me too. If they do it right it works, if they don't do it right it doesn't. Just like most things in this life.
i know Chris personally. He's just a normal sort of guy, really. He can even be nice at times, in the right company.
Fortunately most fights are with John, poor bugger. And he drinks far too much and his friends let him down. We are really fortunate in Australia. We don't have so many of the strong, drugged psycho killers on our streets.
All styles, boxing, BJJ, judo, karate, aikido etc have kihon. The comment means you have no real idea of the basics of any style. Kata is totally different and means different things to different people. However if I were you I wouldn't talk too much about kata. It is obvious you have no idea of it either.
Oh, we put on pads to, and mouth guards and head protectors etc. We very rarely attack empty air, it doesn't hit back.
OMG! I think you have been watching too many scary movies. Most of our "real" killer criminals are in jail. But you're right. I hope no one gets attacked by a "real"killer criminal either.
But thanks for the entertainment, it's been a lot of fun. :wavey:
I train to defend against someone like myself. If I know how many ways that I can attack my opponent, I should also know how to deal with all those situations. For example, I like to use groin kick, face punch combo. If my opponent throws a groin kick, I should assume that his face punch will come next.
IMO, the most common attack will be:
- jab,
- hook/haymaker,
- front/side kick,
- roundhouse kick,
- foot sweep,
- single leg or double legs attack.
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Due to JKS's comments, this will be a little more restrained than it should be...
Kofo, you have absolutely no idea what I "believe in". The only person to have mentioned such things as "magic pressure point" usage is you. Not me, son, you. As I said, you really don't seem to know what Kyusho is (it's not what's seen in the clip you posted, by the way... that's closer to the cult/George Dilman kinda thing, which is nothing like the actual stuff, or what I teach and train). Kyusho can be looked on as basically a concept of targeting... go back to the clip I posted. I counted most of our most common targets (kyusho) being used... kasumi, asagasumi, suigetsu, butsumetsu, hadome, jinchu, menbu, etc.... but, of course, as it doesn't have a "magic, mystic" appearance, you don't think martial arts actually deal in it? This is what I meant when I said this wasn't a debate... there's not enough information on your side to form an argument.
What makes you think I believe in what they're presenting, or how they're presenting it? I'm quite serious here, what on earth makes you think I subscribe to such things? Oh, but as to Guy's comment, "hurting enough" isn't really part of it... talk to the guys who got knocked out in the ring... did it "hurt enough"? Or did they just wake up wondering what happened?
Well, you've really missed your take on me, then.
I haven't put you down. I've pointed out that you are frankly well and truly out of your depth here, and have no actual understanding of any of the subjects you're trying to discuss. You have also avoided answering any questions, either ignoring them outright or giving a deflection with no answer, and then continued spouting the same ill-informed nonsense that you've been called on by everyone else in the thread. What am I compensating for? Your lack of knowledge.
You really don't know what you're likely to face... wasting time talking or thinking (fantasizing) about some "strong, drugged, psycho killer" is pointless. You might as well only think about fighting James Bond... or Conan the Barbarian. Get some understanding about real violence, real attackers, the most common scenarios and situations, the difference between the varying forms of violence, learn what a resource predator is, what the monkey dance is, what the aim of social violence is versus asocial violence, what weapons are likely to be encountered, what the laws are around you, an understanding of psychology (both your own and your potential attacker), and so on and so forth. Then you'll be more in a position to talk about what works and what doesn't.
Yeah, I've noticed that pattern as well....
Ha, yeah.... just shaking my head when I saw those....
No, they don't. Kihon, on the other hand, is a constant refinement and development of skill in application of the basic, fundamental mechanics and actions of a system... it's pretty much the major thing that does work. I mean, the MMA world version of it is bag work, transition drills, and similar... are you saying that actually practicing your most basic techniques doesn't have a use? But, at the same time, you were complaining that complicated things didn't work earlier... hmm.
Oh, and you don't understand kata.
Depends on which of my systems you're talking about here... but, to keep it to modern self defence, I train for the most common forms of attack in my society... which aren't really anything like what you're talking about.
Er, no, actually. Regular guys attack other people all the time. Could be an emotional trigger, could be alcohol, could be ego, could be greed, could be fear, could be jealousy, could be any of a wide range of reasons. It's not just career criminals and Bane out there getting into fights.
Your grip on reality doesn't seem particularly strong, honestly. That's not an attack, it's an observation. And it's also the cause of the issues you're getting in the responses from myself and others here.
Your "real" killer criminal doesn't exist outside of very extreme, particular circumstances and circles. But, to the point, who said I'm not violent? Believe me, when my eyes are looked into, it's not what you're thinking there...
Your last comment (about not adopting "some stupid martial arts fighting position") is almost correct (although I might add that such phrasing can be taken as "art bashing", which is against the rules, worthy of reporting, and can lead to some, uh, repercussions...). I would also not recommend adopting anything that gives away your background... not that it'll "fuel their anger", as you've made an assumption that's frankly not supported by reality.
Ah, on topic! Nice! Agreed!
Kofo, you have absolutely no idea what I "believe in". The only person to have mentioned such things as "magic pressure point" usage is you. Not me, son, you. As I said, you really don't seem to know what Kyusho is (it's not what's seen in the clip you posted, by the way... that's closer to the cult/George Dilman kinda thing, which is nothing like the actual stuff, or what I teach and train). Kyusho can be looked on as basically a concept of targeting... go back to the clip I posted. I counted most of our most common targets (kyusho) being used... kasumi, asagasumi, suigetsu, butsumetsu, hadome, jinchu, menbu, etc.... but, of course, as it doesn't have a "magic, mystic" appearance, you don't think martial arts actually deal in it? This is what I meant when I said this wasn't a debate... there's not enough information on your side to form an argument.
What makes you think I believe in what they're presenting, or how they're presenting it? I'm quite serious here, what on earth makes you think I subscribe to such things? Oh, but as to Guy's comment, "hurting enough" isn't really part of it... talk to the guys who got knocked out in the ring... did it "hurt enough"? Or did they just wake up wondering what happened?
Well, you've really missed your take on me, then.
I haven't put you down. I've pointed out that you are frankly well and truly out of your depth here, and have no actual understanding of any of the subjects you're trying to discuss. You have also avoided answering any questions, either ignoring them outright or giving a deflection with no answer, and then continued spouting the same ill-informed nonsense that you've been called on by everyone else in the thread. What am I compensating for? Your lack of knowledge.
You really don't know what you're likely to face... wasting time talking or thinking (fantasizing) about some "strong, drugged, psycho killer" is pointless. You might as well only think about fighting James Bond... or Conan the Barbarian. Get some understanding about real violence, real attackers, the most common scenarios and situations, the difference between the varying forms of violence, learn what a resource predator is, what the monkey dance is, what the aim of social violence is versus asocial violence, what weapons are likely to be encountered, what the laws are around you, an understanding of psychology (both your own and your potential attacker), and so on and so forth. Then you'll be more in a position to talk about what works and what doesn't.
Yeah, I've noticed that pattern as well....
I remember seeing the Tae-Bo commercials with some woman talking to the camera about how much safer she feels now that she can defend herself thanks to Tae-Bo!
Ha, yeah.... just shaking my head when I saw those....
No, they don't. Kihon, on the other hand, is a constant refinement and development of skill in application of the basic, fundamental mechanics and actions of a system... it's pretty much the major thing that does work. I mean, the MMA world version of it is bag work, transition drills, and similar... are you saying that actually practicing your most basic techniques doesn't have a use? But, at the same time, you were complaining that complicated things didn't work earlier... hmm.
Oh, and you don't understand kata.
Depends on which of my systems you're talking about here... but, to keep it to modern self defence, I train for the most common forms of attack in my society... which aren't really anything like what you're talking about.
Er, no, actually. Regular guys attack other people all the time. Could be an emotional trigger, could be alcohol, could be ego, could be greed, could be fear, could be jealousy, could be any of a wide range of reasons. It's not just career criminals and Bane out there getting into fights.
Your grip on reality doesn't seem particularly strong, honestly. That's not an attack, it's an observation. And it's also the cause of the issues you're getting in the responses from myself and others here.
Your "real" killer criminal doesn't exist outside of very extreme, particular circumstances and circles. But, to the point, who said I'm not violent? Believe me, when my eyes are looked into, it's not what you're thinking there...
Your last comment (about not adopting "some stupid martial arts fighting position") is almost correct (although I might add that such phrasing can be taken as "art bashing", which is against the rules, worthy of reporting, and can lead to some, uh, repercussions...). I would also not recommend adopting anything that gives away your background... not that it'll "fuel their anger", as you've made an assumption that's frankly not supported by reality.
Ah, on topic! Nice! Agreed!
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
i know Chris personally. He's just a normal sort of guy, really. He can even be nice at times, in the right company.
"Nice"?!?! "Normal"?!?!?!?!?
...............grumble-grumble-grumble-libel-grumble-grumble-slander-grumble-grumble...........
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
OK! OK! So I exaggerate at times. Don't ruin the image.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
There are many things of importance, you don't just need one thing.
A bit overly simplistic, there is also aggression level, intent and state of mind. A big lazy guy can be beaten by a small intense guy even if the skills are identical.
Full contact sparring is not entirely realistic either, if it was then you would not be able to do it for very long without serious injuries unless you add protective gear and rules that say where you can and cannot strike.
Because one thing TMA's are supposed to teach is good character, criminals would be kicked out so they don't harm the schools reputation.
:bs:
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
I remember seeing the Tae-Bo commercials with some woman talking to the camera about how much safer she feels now that she can defend herself thanks to Tae-Bo!
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
If you do Tae Bo for self defense at least you would be fit when you get beaten up.
Kofo
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Answer this then, how much anger would it take for you to attack someone ? Not self defence, but attack. Someone that didnt want to fight you at all. Im betting you must have developed some really strong anger. Have you ever tried putting clothes on a 2 year old that doesnt want too ? The strength they develop is just incredible. And it is fueled by anger.
Kofo
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That is of course not the issue. If a person start MA at 20 years old and another starts tennis. After 5 years of training I am sure gonna tell you that the tennis player is gonna be nowhere near world class level in tennis. So why is the MA guy with a black belt and 5 years of training really gonna be any good at all ?
Kofo
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Funny how you guys twist everything to your advantage
Shadow boxing= kihon or kata. Difference of course is that shadow boxing is like how a boxer would move in a real fight.
KO=Pressure points. They never talk like that in boxing, its just him in the head as hard as you can.
Kofo
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Then why not just train kickboxing ?
Kofo
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If what I trained was, always questioned and even ridiculed, and declining in popularity. I would stop and think, hey it might be something to it.
The Black belt doesnt really have to be good, just better than the attacker. 5 years may not be much, but thats 5 years training to defend themselves. Thats 5 years more than the angry street guy who will most likely be swinging wild and not paying attention to anything he's doing. At that point things could go in the Black belts favor simply a because he paid attention and didnt get hit. Haymakers arent too hard to avoid. If nothing else that black belt will no how to get out of the way after 5 years of training, at least I'd hope so.
Kofo
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1. Is it enaugh if the attacker is biger stronger and a real bad guy
2. Is there some other training method that will give a higher SD level after 5 y of training
you keep saying a real bad guy, but anyone could be a real bad guy. Many assaults arent committed by a rapist or killer, just some pissed off or offended dude. Also, I highly doubt in that BB's 5 years of training he didnt have to learn how to defend themselves against someone much larger than themselves, even with intent to harm the BB should still be more prepared to protect themselves than a giant, untrained, adrenaline hindered attacker. Plus, its not the method that really matters. A BB at any semi-reputable martial arts school still gives someone a higher SD level than someone untrained. Someone poorly trained in MMA or BJJ (two popular choices people consider for SD) could easily lose to someone well trained in anything else.
I have been around violence my entire adult life Kofo. I train "specifically" for violent confrontations (physically and mentally). I have seen huge men get their arses ripped to shreds by smaller "underweight" guys because the little man struck the big man when the big man didn't see it coming......Our bodies are vulnerable plain and simple.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
actually, what I train in is declining in popularity quite severely. Very few people do it, and far fewer do it well. To someone who was raised on a steady diet of MMA type competitions, our methods do not look like what they believe a fighting method should look like. People don't understand it when they see it, they question it, some people even ridicule it. But I don't decide what I will do or not do based on the ignorance of others. I don't care what anyone else thinks. I understand the value in my training methods, even if you or someone else does not. Making sure that everyone else agrees with what I am doing simply does not have a place on my list of priorities.
you are welcome to your opinions. I'm generally happy to engage in a discussion and help educate someone about what I do, but I have no interest in trying to force you to change your opinion. That often means that at some point the discussion simply ends. Believe what you like. It has zero impact on me.
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