Kenpo and Hapkido

[Brother John]

Thank you Very much!!!
That turned the light on for me.

Your Brother
John

 

[eyebeams]

Enh. I take issue with the idea that it's bad/wrong to explicitly discuss presure point techniques. Why?

1) It gives cover to frauds. There are many, many frauds in this field promoting touch/no touch knockouts. They are often, in fact, using the same methods as stage hypnotists.

2) It's all in print or on video somewhere anyway, and I'm not particularly interested in supporting a commercial monopoly on practical knowledge about the body.

3) Knowledge alone does not make any technique effective. Constant practice to the point where the technique is reflexive make it effective. Many things that used to be secrets are not secrets any more and it hasn't made much of a difference, because only a minority are going to practice to make it effective. There have been more deaths from children trying to replicate wrestling moves and finishers from TV and video games than from martial arts techniques. And it takes little esoteric knowledge to realize that a strike to the carotid artery works very, very well.

4) Limiting the free exchange of ideas is anathema to claims of a scientific approach to martial arts training. Imagine, if you will, that Pons and Fleischman has refused to share information about their cold fusion claims except to note how well it worked. This would have retarded research by quite a bit as scientists attempted to reverse engineer or refute without the required information.

This is a bigger issue, and what annoys me about the "scientific" buzzword. Science is a specific methodology designed to ensure testable results regardless of the individual observer. Acupuncture and TCM have benefitted greatly from real science to the point where the average person can research how plausible the claims of an individual acupunturist are.

So how many martial "scientists" are using double-blind experiments with "placebo" strikes to ineffective points? As far as I know: none. There is nothing wrong with this, but you can't make a scientific claim without reputable experimental protocols that can be tested by impartial researchers (in the case of martial arts: someone outside your school, someone who didn't pay for your seminar).

Some folks aren't going to enjoy what I just wrote, but it's not meant as a troll. I think it describes some of the most serious impediments to developing martial arts.

 

[eyebeams]

ok, using kenpo-terms think of the hammerlock attack in flight to freedom, since its fresh in my mind from last night's class! if the attacker is controling your spine through the hammerlock, you will not be able to step back and elbow him effectively, if its just your arm that he's got, the tech works fine.

the analogy compares the human body to a 200 pound iron chain, each limb being a link and the joints are where the links meet. if you grab one link and lock it to only the one link next to it, it would be difficult to move the entire chain. the further away from the link you've grabbed would remain unaffected and difficult to move, even though you may have good control on the 2 links that are locked. so in the ineffective hammerlock, the kenpoist can move his leg to step back and use his other elbow to deliver the strike.

if the you use your whole body to control your opponent's whole body, its like putting the chain in a box. all the links are affected when you move the box, and cannot move independantly. in the hammerlock example, an effective lock would go through the elbow, shoulder and down the spine disturbing your balance and putting you up on your toes, making any attempt at steppinb back and elbowing ineffective, if at all possible...

pete

This is a great, simple description. The only thing I'd add would be that the person needs to be unbalanced so that they are a long chain, as opposed to a chain attached to a rock . . .

 

[bdparsons]

Knowledge alone does not make any technique effective. Constant practice to the point where the technique is reflexive make it effective. Many things that used to be secrets are not secrets any more and it hasn't made much of a difference, because only a minority are going to practice to make it effective.

I agree whole-heartedly! There are to many folks today that just "play" with pressure points. At best it's deceptive, at worst someone could be accidently get seriously hurt or die.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Doc]

Agreed. However, we all know that pressure point striking and the "X-touch knock-out" is popularly taught. Woukl you say that a rapid-fire multiple-point technique is effective, in your opinion?

Yes.

 

[Gentle Fist]

Great posts Bill, keep them coming!

 

[MJS]

I agree whole-heartedly! There are to many folks today that just "play" with pressure points. At best it's deceptive, at worst someone could be accidently get seriously hurt or die.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

Excellent advice!! While PP may not always be easy to hit, I think that there is a great value in learning them, especially for a controlling situation. I do feel though, as you stated, that its very important to have a very good understanding of them.

Mike

 

[Doc]

As I remember it. When asked about what arts he thought were worth their salt. Mr.Parker Sr., mentioned Hapkido, namely its "water" theory. Like its already been stated here. It realy depends on which system of Hapkido, or Kenpo you choose. Some kenpo systems are very rapid fire self-defense oriented(ie,Epak), and some are very much rooted in the more traditional aspects of training(ie,Kosho-Ryu). From what I've read over the years. It would seem that Hapkido is no different.

Mr. Parker was talking about specific interpretations of Hapkido as practiced by Sea Oh Choi and no other. There are many who claim almost as many Hapkido interpretations as kenpo as you stated.

 

[kenpoworks]

I personally asked Mr.parker about a comparible art to Kenpo and without drawing breath he said "Jujitsu. if you can't study Kenpo, study jutitsu"..Plymouth UK 1989

 

[Doc]

I personally asked Mr.parker about a comparible art to Kenpo and without drawing breath he said "Jujitsu. if you can't study Kenpo, study jutitsu"..Plymouth UK 1989

As long s you know he wasn't talking about the so-called "Brazillian" kind. Mr. Parker was a black belt in Jiujitsu. But more importantly it should tell you a great deal about what he left out of his commercial Kenpo. Think about it.

 

[arnisador]

I personally asked Mr.parker about a comparible art to Kenpo and without drawing breath he said "Jujitsu. if you can't study Kenpo, study jutitsu"

If you can't study Kenpo, take this...so he didn't mean as a companion, but rather as a next-best. Interesting! I think of Kenpo as emphasizing strikes and Jujutsu as emphasizing locks, so I would have seen them as more different.

Mr. Parker was a black belt in Jiujitsu.

Did he favor a certain style of (Japanese) Jujutsu?

 

[eyebeams]

EPAK seems like it wouldn't blend as well with Hapkido schools that borrow their striking more from Taekkyon/Soo Bahk, since these are big, committed circular blows. For instance, the basic punch in Moo Gong Kwan Hapkido features a full body rotation and ends in a forward stance with the torso in line with the rear leg. Anybody on the end of that thing is *finished.* You learn shorter blows later in styles like this, but you start out with an internal CMA striking methdology that's been put back into a longer blow. I personally found that it went well with both the kenpo I do and Mizong Luohanquan, which uses a similar method.

Other styles do use shorter, quicker strikes right from the start, as well as more common sorts of chambering.

 

[Doc]

If you can't study Kenpo, take this...so he didn't mean as a companion, but rather as a next-best. Interesting! I think of Kenpo as emphasizing strikes and Jujutsu as emphasizing locks, so I would have seen them as more different.


Did he favor a certain style of (Japanese) Jujutsu?

In the old days of Chow Kenpo in Hawaii, it would have been difficult to tell the difference between the two. Examine the early film of Mr. Parker on the mainland and almost every technique ended with a throw, or takedown and breakfall.

Parker through Chow was exposed to the DanSan Ryu Jiu-jitsu of Henry Okazaki, which broke from the "traditional Japanese" in the islands.

The modern Jiu-jitsu/Judo prevails, (and in some cases they are the same) and today they emphasize "sport grappling," while more traditional Jiu-jitsu is quite different.

 

[arnisador]

Ah, thanks! I've read about Henry Okazaki's system, but I don't have any direct knowledge of it.

 

[kenpoworks]

Doc said:-
As long s you know he wasn't talking about the so-called "Brazillian" kind. Mr. Parker was a black belt in Jiujitsu. But more importantly it should tell you a great deal about what he left out of his commercial Kenpo. Think about it.

Hey Doc,
Nobody had really heard of Brazillain Jujitsu then, Edmund told me about six years ago in Ireland that his father was a BlackBelt in Jujitsu when i told him the story and yes I have thought about it as well as addressed the fact ever since.
The "commercial" stuff may be the "vehicle", but I have not follwed the "commercial" route for a long time.....thats why I love your "stuff" so much!
With Maximum Respect
Richard
ps many thanks for the upgrade

 

[Doc]

Doc said:-
As long s you know he wasn't talking about the so-called "Brazillian" kind. Mr. Parker was a black belt in Jiujitsu. But more importantly it should tell you a great deal about what he left out of his commercial Kenpo. Think about it.

Hey Doc,
Nobody had really heard of Brazillain Jujitsu then, Edmund told me about six years ago in Ireland that his father was a BlackBelt in Jujitsu when i told him the story and yes I have thought about it as well as addressed the fact ever since.
The "commercial" stuff may be the "vehicle", but I have not follwed the "commercial" route for a long time.....thats why I love your "stuff" so much!
With Maximum Respect
Richard
ps many thanks for the upgrade

Anytime, China!