Can an underweight man realistically protect himself/fight his way out of a situation?

[Tony Dismukes]

For me it is natural to separate Traditional Martial Arts from Boxing, Kickboxing and MMA because the difference is simply to big. Whenever you see a guy with a Karate or TKD background enter UFC or K1 you cant see any sign of their roots, its like they have to totally abandon their traditional style to stand a chance.

If you can't see Lyoto Machida's karate background when he fights, then frankly you don't know what you are looking at. Likewise, a lot of K1 fighters are karateka. If you think they've abandoned their arts, then you don't know what their art is really about in the first place.

You say "the difference is too big" between boxing/kickboxing/MMA and other martial arts. Leaving aside the fact that kickboxing is a generic term that covers a variety of arts/competition formats and that MMA is a training/competition format that encompasses a number of unrelated traditional arts, what is it that you think makes such a huge difference? What experience or training do you have in any of these arts to back up that opinion?

I respect your opinion, but I feel that mindset is the most important. You see athletes choke under pressure in all sports, baseball, soccer, tennis etc They have all the training and so on, but still end up freezing at the most important time.

So when it comes to your regular guy blackbelt in a life and death situation, Im sorry, I just dont see him turning in to Jean Claude van Damme kicking the bad guys ***.

Many people would agree with you on the idea of mindset being the most important element. It's pointless to argue about that because there's no way to measure it. If you have two combatants, equal in all regards except that one has a tougher mindset and the other has an extra 40 pounds of muscle, who will win? Based on just that information, you can't know. There's no way to say "this guy has an extra 10 points of killer instinct and each point is equal to a 5 pound weight advantage."

The real problem comes with your "so when it comes ..." conclusion. On what basis do you purport to know that the "regular guy blackbelt" will have the inferior mindset in a life or death situation compared to whoever they might be fighting? For that matter, how are you defining the "regular guy blackbelt?" There can be a huge difference in the mindset cultivated/required in one school versus another.

BTW - in order to win or survive a fight, it's not necessary for a martial artist to "turn into Jean Claude van Damme", i.e. put on a cinematic display of magical ***-kicking. It's just necessary to be a little tougher or smarter or luckier than the opponent.

 

[colemcm]

Kofo,

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that a TMAist is going to fight like they're performing a form. That's not how it works and that's not what forms are for. Forms are the start, not the end.

You also seem to believe that anyone involved in TMA is basically a delusional dreamer who operates with no understanding of the reality of violence. At the same time, you believe that guys who train for a one-on-one competition that offers little possibility of death in a caged ring with a padded floor are the pinnacle of what a MAist is and what the MAs are about. I have a lot of respect for MMA fighters. I think the UFC did the MAs a great service in highlighting the weaknesses in many of the training regimens of that time. However, it's a mistake to believe that TMAs haven't changed or incorporated those lessons.

I'd recommend that you take that critical eye that you put on TMA and take a good long look at MMA. There's a BIG difference between a guy that gets into a fight where the consequence is that he loses a competition and maybe his ego is bruised (but he still takes away a good-sized purse) and a guy that gets into a fight where the consequence is he dies and doesn't go home to his family.

Are many of the people that get involved in TMAs dedicated to really learning self-defense? Not really. Maybe 1 in 100 will put in the time and energy needed to really learn how to defend themselves. Is that the fault of TMAs? No. It's the fault of the individual.

TMAs aren't what you see in a Jet Li movie. Real fights aren't what you see in a cage match.

 

[Hyoho]

It depends of course on the blackbelt and the attacker, in every culture you got someone that looks like the ultimate public enemy. In Japan
maybe a Yakuza ? So if a regular Japanese office worker, blackbelt, is facing a Yakuza you tell me who should freeze of the two ?

Not a difficult question to answer. I used to work for the Yakuza. There are those that wear nice suits and carry brief cases and (chimpira) that do displeasing work for them that have done time. Even Yakuza kids go to school. The had a very nice private Kendo Dojo and like their kids to be raised in a proper very very polite manner. I found when it came to duty and obligation they top the list.

 

[yakuzanobi]

But, back to the main question: is it realistic for someone like me to be able to protect himself/fight his way out of any surprise situations? Especially against a larger opponent? (multiple opponents are subject to debate for heavier people, so I'll leave this one out for now)

(By fight I mean being cornered, and having no choice but to take the guy(s) down)

To answer your question, YES. If you don't have the power you'd like to have you would have to have a firm understanding of anatomy and pressure point areas as you don't have time for multiple strikes to take down an opponent. Big guys go down just as easy when attacked in the eyes, throat, or groin area. So if you feel your power isn't there yet, focus on delivering more accurate strikes. Size means nothing, when I visit Japan 130-165lb Japanese men strike me at 200lbs and i go down like it's cool.

When I studied Kobudo, I was taught a punching technique that involved a whipping motion before the strike that made it much more powerful than it should have been. Point being, there are ways of dealing with a lack of power. Also, you may want to incorporate eccentric weight training in your workout. Along with plyometrics, it will increase your strength and power but not muscle mass.

Respectfully Submitted

 

[Kofo]

To answer your question, YES. If you don't have the power you'd like to have you would have to have a firm understanding of anatomy and pressure point areas as you don't have time for multiple strikes to take down an opponent. Big guys go down just as easy when attacked in the eyes, throat, or groin area. So if you feel your power isn't there yet, focus on delivering more accurate strikes. Size means nothing, when I visit Japan 130-165lb Japanese men strike me at 200lbs and i go down like it's cool.

When I studied Kobudo, I was taught a punching technique that involved a whipping motion before the strike that made it much more powerful than it should have been. Point being, there are ways of dealing with a lack of power. Also, you may want to incorporate eccentric weight training in your workout. Along with plyometrics, it will increase your strength and power but not muscle mass.

Respectfully Submitted

Why would a untrained, overweight, unskilled nice guy attack anyone ?

If you face a big mean bastard, those magic pressure points and whipping strikes will do no harm at all. The attacker could be so full of adrenalin, anger and drugs that he wont feel any pain.

 

[Kofo]

Kofo,

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that a TMAist is going to fight like they're performing a form. That's not how it works and that's not what forms are for. Forms are the start, not the end.

You also seem to believe that anyone involved in TMA is basically a delusional dreamer who operates with no understanding of the reality of violence. At the same time, you believe that guys who train for a one-on-one competition that offers little possibility of death in a caged ring with a padded floor are the pinnacle of what a MAist is and what the MAs are about. I have a lot of respect for MMA fighters. I think the UFC did the MAs a great service in highlighting the weaknesses in many of the training regimens of that time. However, it's a mistake to believe that TMAs haven't changed or incorporated those lessons.

I'd recommend that you take that critical eye that you put on TMA and take a good long look at MMA. There's a BIG difference between a guy that gets into a fight where the consequence is that he loses a competition and maybe his ego is bruised (but he still takes away a good-sized purse) and a guy that gets into a fight where the consequence is he dies and doesn't go home to his family.

Are many of the people that get involved in TMAs dedicated to really learning self-defense? Not really. Maybe 1 in 100 will put in the time and energy needed to really learn how to defend themselves. Is that the fault of TMAs? No. It's the fault of the individual.

TMAs aren't what you see in a Jet Li movie. Real fights aren't what you see in a cage match.

I agree to a lot of what is said, however MA magic is alive and kicking also in this tread.

 

[Hyoho]

I agree to a lot of what is said, however MA magic is alive also in this tread.

True but its going in circles with "What if" questions. Its 2013 even bad people are usually armed regardless of size. Leave your budo in the dojo and go by yourself a taser.

I live in the recent typhoon disaster area but have had to relocate due to damage and no services. Living in the jungle with guys carrying bolo looking for something to steal by moonlight for two weeks needs stronger defence other than MA.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, well

Its my opinion that mindset is the most important in self-defence. Not complicated technics, foot position etc.

Okay, no. The most important is education, followed by awareness. The idea of "mindset" being important is kinda, well, wrong the way most look at it. For one thing, there is a tendency to imagine self defence being an almost "kill or be killed" situation... which can happen, but is so far in the minority to be almost irrelevant... and the typically associated "killer" mindset is firstly not achievable for many, and secondly not really that appropriate. Having a mindset of "I will survive/I will get through this" is okay, but it's only part of the equation. If you really want to have something reliable as physical defensive methods, you're going to need to work some form of technique. But, to clarify for you, that does not mean anything complicated.

Its common sense that the biggest guys win when skill set is identical.

Who says that skill sets are identical when it comes to a self defence scenario?

Why would anyone do traditional MA if he wanted to fight ? The logical thing would be to start boxing, kickb or MMA. The majority of people who start with traditional MA want to learn self defense. They do not wanna do realistic full contact sparring, if so they would of course join boxing or MMA.

And your evidence for this is....?

Why doesnt criminals train traditional Martial Arts if it really works magic in a street fight ?

Once again, you don't seem to be aware of the realities of who is doing what.

Muscle is of course a major part of self defense, only a professional fighter would stand a chance in a fight against a 2 meter tall Strong man competitor, your average club black belt wouldnt stand a chance. The level of a black belt is not relatively any better than a recreational tennisplayer compared to Rafael Nadal.

Wow. You know, the way you spout such non-sense, it'd be nice if you could actually cite, I don't know, any evidence at all....

MA would probably work wonders towards a traditional drunk. I actually belive that.

Then you should really change your beliefs, as they seem to be made up of nothing based in reality.

However MA got no chance when the oponent is a seasoned, traumatized, ruthless criminal, used to a hard life in and out of prison. Just the look of his muscular body, tatoos and psycotic eyes would make 99% of black belts freeze.

Ah... cause, of course, that's what everyone faces every day.... and, again, where do you get your ideas about "99% of black belts" from?

It depends of course on the blackbelt and the attacker, in every culture you got someone that looks like the ultimate public enemy. In Japan maybe a Yakuza ? So if a regular Japanese office worker, blackbelt, is facing a Yakuza you tell me who should freeze of the two ?

Ha! And, exactly how much experience do you have with yakuza? Hyoho has some... you?

I respect your opinion, but I feel that mindset is the most important. You see athletes choke under pressure in all sports, baseball, soccer, tennis etc They have all the training and so on, but still end up freezing at the most important time.

So when it comes to your regular guy blackbelt in a life and death situation, Im sorry, I just dont see him turning in to Jean Claude van Damme kicking the bad guys ***.

So, what you're saying is that you have an unrealistic image of what a martial artist should be like (JCVD), an unrealistic understanding of martial arts, an unrealistic understanding of modern violence and self defence, and are unaware of the reality on any side, but have your beliefs which you think are therefore something valid for us to listen to? Okay....

Oh, and the connection to an athlete "choking" isn't actually related or relevant here either... quite a different phenomena, so you know.

Why would a untrained, overweight, unskilled nice guy attack anyone ?

Where did that come from? And why do you think that your description is accurate in any way? But, for the record, I can think of quite a few scenarios where it could easily happen...

If you face a big mean bastard, those magic pressure points and whipping strikes will do no harm at all. The attacker could be so full of adrenalin, anger and drugs that he wont feel any pain.

Not really sure about kyusho, are you? They don't have to feel pain for these things to be effective....

I agree to a lot of what is said, however MA magic is alive and kicking also in this tread.

Yep... and a lot of it seems to be coming from you.

You know what, I was right. I said you'd be fun....

 

[Kofo]

Wow. You know, the way you spout such non-sense, it'd be nice if you could actually cite, I don't know, any evidence at all....

Please explain why a regular black belt would have a higher skill level than a regular tennis, football or hockey player ?

 

[Kofo]

Then you should really change your beliefs, as they seem to be made up of nothing based in reality.

Funny coming from a guy beliving in magic pressure points, too bad magic doesnt work in the UFC i guess.

 

[Kofo]

Who says that skill sets are identical when it comes to a self defence scenario?

No one of course.

 

[Kofo]

Where did that come from? And why do you think that your description is accurate in any way? But, for the record, I can think of quite a few scenarios where it could easily happen...

Its hard to debate when you miss points all the time.

small vs big
skilled small vs big
skilled small vs skilled big

Are the different scenarios here

 

[Chris Parker]

Please explain why a regular black belt would have a higher skill level than a regular tennis, football or hockey player ?

First of all, you'd need to define "regular black belt"... because I'm really not sure there is such a thing. But, if we're to look at it as someone who has spent their time, dedicated to their own art, to the point of being seen as above the general populace (not too far off, I'd suggest), then you'd need to compare them more with the local tennis or golf pro. Sure, they might not win Wimbledon, but they've developed the skills to be able to make a career of it... and, put them up against someone who plays at the club as a casual player, who are you going to bet on? Of course, this is completely irrelevant, you realise... hence my calling it nonsense.

Funny coming from a guy beliving in magic pressure points, too bad magic doesnt work in the UFC i guess.

Ooh, I love it when you show just how little you get this.... "magic pressure points"? Really? Who (apart from yourself) have said anything about "magic pressure points"? I mentioned Kyusho... you do know what that is, don't you?

And, as for it not "working" in the UFC (the UFC is nothing to do with real violence and self defence, you know... which means that if something doesn't work in there, all it means is it doesn't work there), well...

Lots of examples of it working there, mate...

No one of course.

Then why do you use it as a justification of your lack of knowledge of the reality here?

Its hard to debate when you miss points all the time.

Ha, you think this is a debate? Nah... you're not informed enough. This is a walkover.

small vs big
skilled small vs big
skilled small vs skilled big

Are the different scenarios here

No they aren't. Smaller against larger attacker in a self defence situation/environment is the scenario. What you're positing is removed from that.

 

[SENC-33]

Kyusho was my first passion and for somebody to suggest it isn't effective on big mean bastards high on drugs and adrenaline is foolish. I don't do many seminars anymore but when I do them for LEO's I "always" get asked about the effectiveness of pressure points. This is when I pull out the vagus nerve strike which is doable for pretty much anybody in a pre-emptive situation. It works wonders on insane people as well......

There are several easy targets along the jaw line and neck. You don't need years of Kyusho training to incorporate them into your striking regiment

 

[Kofo]

Ooh, I love it when you show just how little you get this.... "magic pressure points"? Really? Who (apart from yourself) have said anything about "magic pressure points"? I mentioned Kyusho... you do know what that is, don't you?

And, as for it not "working" in the UFC (the UFC is nothing to do with real violence and self defence, you know... which means that if something doesn't work in there, all it means is it doesn't work there), well...



Lots of examples of it working there, mate...

Nope thats just regular knock outs nothing like this stuff you belive in

Sorry I dont belive in this stuff. And neither does Guy Bloom, having withstanded these tricks,commented to the "instructor" on why he didnt go down. "It just didnt hurt enough"

 

[Kofo]

Ha, you think this is a debate? Nah... you're not informed enough. This is a walkover.

Any reason you are so full of yourself ? What are you compensating for ? Lack of height ? Childhood bullying ?

You just seem like a very insecure person in all your answers here on martialtalk. Like you really has to put the other person down. You are the only person acting like this towards me. The others might not have agreed with everything but they say where they feel I am right and offer their opinion where they disagree.

 

[SENC-33]

Nope thats just regular knock outs nothing like this stuff you belive in

Sorry I dont belive in this stuff. And neither does Guy Bloom, having withstanded these tricks,commented to the "instructor" on why he didnt go down. "It just didnt hurt enough"

I guess if it doesn't bring Guy Bloom to his knees it won't work on John Doe?

 

[Kofo]

I guess if it doesn't bring Guy Bloom to his knees it won't work on John Doe?

My enemy is not John Doe, he is not dangerous. I prepare for a strong, druged, psycho killer. That stuff wont stop him.

 

[SENC-33]

My enemy is not John Doe, he is not dangerous. I prepare for a strong, druged, psycho killer. That stuff wont stop him.

Partner I have been practicing Kyusho for over 20 years and YES it will stop even a drug induced nut case in his tracks (when executed properly). The problem with YouTube is that you get to cherry pick what you choose to look at, link to and comment on. I could do the same thing with any style of martial art or self defense and then just proclaim it to be nonsense that doesn't work. If only these video creators would stop with the showcasing and stick to the aspects that are effective.....That goes for any style or art.

 

[lklawson]

Well, well

Its my opinion that mindset is the most important in self-defence. Not complicated technics, foot position etc.

Its common sense that the biggest guys win when skill set is identical.

Why would anyone do traditional MA if he wanted to fight ? The logical thing would be to start boxing, kickb or MMA. The majority of people who start with traditional MA want to learn self defense. They do not wanna do realistic full contact sparring, if so they would of course join boxing or MMA.

Why doesnt criminals train traditional Martial Arts if it really works magic in a street fight ?

Muscle is of course a major part of self defense, only a professional fighter would stand a chance in a fight against a 2 meter tall Strong man competitor, your average club black belt wouldnt stand a chance. The level of a black belt is not relatively any better than a recreational tennisplayer compared to Rafael Nadal.

MA would probably work wonders towards a traditional drunk. I actually belive that.

However MA got no chance when the oponent is a seasoned, traumatized, ruthless criminal, used to a hard life in and out of prison. Just the look of his muscular body, tatoos and psycotic eyes would make 99% of black belts freeze.

Wow...

While I generally agree that size, strength, weight, endurance, and "attitude" can be very important factors, particularly when one or both are unarmed, pretty much the rest of your post is pure MMA "Meat Head" ramblings.