Can an aggressor act in self defense?

[Steve]

The issue I have with the Cry's of racism (not saying that's what you were doing) is that its so over played that its meaningless now. As a police officer I get called a racist at least once a day. That's by all races. I've even had white guys say I was picking on them because they ate white. Race to me is just a way to describe a person no different then saying they are fat skinny blue eyed tall short. It means nothing. Now don't get me wrong there are racists out there. The shopping while black ect ect isn't just a black thing. When I worked under cover they same guy following you around for shopping while black would be following me around as well. Then you have phony outrage over race issues like this Paula Dean story you cant have a serious discussion about not using the N word until its removed from rap music and popular teen vocabulary or the Washington Redskins story. People look for any reason they can to scream racism. It make real instances of it just seem less impactfull because of the 100s of cases of BS boy who cried wolf stories.

I agree, to an extent, and that's why I've tried to specifically exclude race from any of my examples.

One thing to think about the Zimmerman case, though. If Martin were white, living in a largely non-white neighborhood, killed by a black dude, how do you think the narrative on this story would change? Would it be different? I think it would.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Steve]

It depends on how faraway this supposed pursuer was and what he was doing...if Z was on a cell phone and 100 yard away....M could have called 911 (instead of his GF) himself and said he was being followed. If Z was 3 paces behind Z that's another story. The version of events I have read is that M turned around and came up to Z (who was still on his cell...not lurking in the shadows with a drawn gun) and asked "why are you following me?"...to which Z replied "what are you doing here?"...then pushing and fighting started. Z's statement to M is a pretty clear explination of why he was following. IMO the aggressor is the first person who laid hands on the other. There's 911 evidence that Z's state of mind was that he was following a suspicions person...not seeking to chase and tackle someone.

Is the right self defence response to "what are you doing here?" a punch in the face? Assuming that M made first contact which unfortunately there is nobody but Z to corroborate that fact.

That's not to say that Z's suspicions were accurate...but accuracy isn't the standard in self defence....was Z responding with deadly force to deadly force?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

If the pursuer is 100 yards away, wouldn't he have ample opportunity to avoid a direct confrontation?

Zimmerman, for example... Was he 100 yards away when Martin turned and asked him why he was following g him? That doesn't seem possible. Does it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[billc]

Yes. It would be a one day local story, covered on he local news, with no word from the President of the United States, or members of congress, no million dollar bounties on the killers head, and no t-shirts worn by celebrities at award ceremonies...the killer would be explained away as a " troubled" youth who was at heart a good kid, and was probably just a victim of societal racism...so nothing to see here...

Case in point...the large black guy who broke into the white woman's home and savagely beat and robbed her in front of her 3 year old daughter...local story with only mild national interest because there was a video from a nanny cam.

 

[billc]

Her you go...the " white" Hispanic Trayvon Martin no one ever heard of...


http://www.americanthinker.com/blog..._trayvon_martin_shooting_in_phoenix_area.html

Police have yet to charge a black motorist who shot dead a mentally disabled and unarmed "white Hispanic," Daniel Adkins, in a Taco Bell parking lot near Phoenix earlier this month. The two reportedly exchanged words before the shooting that occurred, according to some accounts, after the motorist almost ran over Adkins who then banged his fist on the car's windshield.

The April 3 shooting by the 22-year-old black man -- whom police in suburban Laveen have yet to identify -- has gotten little if any coverage by the national media. Nor has President Obama weighed in on the case. Is it because Adkins doesn't look like his son?
Whatever the case, the slaying of Adkins -- who was walking his yellow lab on a leash -- has ignited controversy in Arizona, and it has been commanding increasing attention in the blogosphere. Adkins' grieving family says he had the mental capacity of a 12 year old. He lived with his mom and dad.
Local media outlets are describing Adkins as a Hispanic -- yet with an "Anglo" name and light complexion, he easily qualifies as what the national media have called a "white Hispanic" when describing George Zimmerman. Is this why the national media has yet to take an interest in the case?
After Adkins was shot dead, his dog, Lady, stayed by his side, and a representative of the Humane Society was called to take the dog away. Police found no weapon at the scene despite the motorist's claim that Adkins had one.

Anyone here ever hear of this shooting?

 

[billc]

Zimmerman, for example... Was he 100 yards away when Martin turned and asked him why he was following g him? That doesn't seem possible. Does it?

The actual distances involved are discussed in the post above...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012...estions_about_trayvon_martins_final_hour.html

According to the audio released by the police, after Martin stared at Zimmerman and began to approach him, the teen took off in the opposite direction, toward the rear entrance of the community and toward the apartment he was staying in. The distance from where Zimmerman began his call, near the mailboxes by the clubhouse, to the apartment of Brandy Green, where Martin was staying, is roughly 850 feet. Someone in good shape could probably run the distance in less than a minute and walk it in two. From the start of Zimmerman's phone call, Martin had about six minutes to get home. But the teenager was apparently not interested in returning to the apartment of his dad's fiancée and reporting the suspicious man to 911. He was shot about 550 feet from where Zimmerman began his call, about 300 feet from Brandy Green's apartment.

Distances examined by Eric Zorn...of the chicago tribune...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/..._police-dispatcher-timeline-fatal-altercation

There's much we still don't know about what happened in those five minutes, but we do know it was five minutes — some 90 seconds longer than in many earlier news accounts that misstated the starting time of Zimmerman's call.
And we do know that maps of the area show that Martin was only about 180 yards from home when Zimmerman told police he saw him running in that direction...
........
Does Zimmerman break off the chase? By 7:12:15 p.m., the wind noises have stopped and his breathing has returned to normal as he discusses with the police dispatcher where responding officers should meet him. At 7:13:12 p.m. he interjects, "I don't know where this kid is."
Where is Martin? At just a normal walking pace of three miles per hour, he would be home by the time Zimmerman hangs up with police at 7:13:41 p.m.
He isn't. In fact, the fatal altercation between Zimmerman and Martin takes place only about 80 yards from Zimmerman's vehicle — 100 yards from the home where Martin was staying. And the first 911 emergency calls from neighbors reporting their fight don't come in until 7:16:11 p.m., 21/2 minutes after Zimmerman hung up.
So what? Well, it's very difficult to reconcile all this with the popular, outraged contention, as voiced by Rep. Frederica Wilson D-Fla., that Martin "was hunted down like a dog," stalked and overtaken by an officious, gun-toting racist.

 

[billc]

As to Martin being an aggressor...did he throw a punch at a bus driver and get the 10 day suspension for it...which is why he was at his father's girlfriend's townhouse...would that change the view that Martin couldn't have been the aggressor?

http://www.examiner.com/article/trayvon-martin-s-ten-day-suspension

says that Stephen Martin tweeted a message to Trayvon on February 21st that read "yu ain't tell me yu swung on a bus driver." Based on....... the message appears to be authentic. It was sent five days before the shooting, and raises a lot of speculation. Was Trayvon Martin suspended for ten days for assaulting a bus driver?
Stephen has also posted a newer picture of Trayvon both on twitter and on Facebook. It shows an older, more muscular Trayvon than what we have seen in the media. It also shows a large tattoo on Trayvon's left arm.
Update: The Florida Sun-Sentinel reported today, March 26th, that Trayvon's ten day suspension was related to marijuana. This, and a cryptic comment by his father that was quoted in the above Kansas City Star article, suggest he was caught smoking marijuana on school property.

 

[Steve]

As to Martin being an aggressor...did he throw a punch at a bus driver and get the 10 day suspension for it...which is why he was at his father's girlfriend's townhouse...would that change the view that Martin couldn't have been the aggressor?

http://www.examiner.com/article/trayvon-martin-s-ten-day-suspension

Martin may have instigated 100 fights, but The only relevant question here is whether he threw a punch at Martin, and we are only able to hear one side.

As for Martin, he was the one being followed. Again, how can someone who is being stalked be considered the aggressor?


Bill, are you afraid of black people? Just curious.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Tgace]

Martin may have instigated 100 fights, but The only relevant question here is whether he threw a punch at Martin, and we are only able to hear one side.

As for Martin, he was the one being followed. Again, how can someone who is being stalked be considered the aggressor?


Bill, are you afraid of black people? Just curious.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Stalking only applies if someone is following for no legitimate purpose...Its arguable that Z was legitimately following someone he thought suspicious (backed up by this 911 statements)..the fact that the person wasn't doing anything illegal doesn't convert the action into "stalking".

If I see a stranger walking down my street looking into car windows and I follow him, Im not "stalking".....

 

[Tgace]

If the pursuer is 100 yards away, wouldn't he have ample opportunity to avoid a direct confrontation?

Zimmerman, for example... Was he 100 yards away when Martin turned and asked him why he was following g him? That doesn't seem possible. Does it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Your assuming this was a "turned around and asked" scenario (close range) vs a turned around...walked a number of yards up to the guy and confronted him.....

 

[billc]

Bill, are you afraid of black people? Just curious.

....Steve

Nicely, done...two insults in the shape of a question which allows you to escape moderator attention. The first insult is calling me a coward, the second calling me a racist...in such a way as to keep our friends from acting on it.

Why this question? Was it because I responded to your question about if the race of the actors in the Zimmerman case were reversed what would actually be the narrative?

One thing to think about the Zimmerman case, though. If Martin were white, living in a largely non-white neighborhood, killed by a black dude, how do you think the narrative on this story would change? Would it be different? I think it would.

....Steve

I gave two real world examples of exactly what you asked for...and you responded with this question...because the actual cases prove you wrong...or right because the actual media coverage of the event are so different...

Why is it again that I haven't insulted you in anyway, I haven't attacked you in any way in my responses and yet you feel the need to attack me? Again, it is your side of the argument that has attacked first. I haven't attacked you and yet you felt the need to attack me...

 

[Steve]

Your assuming this was a "turned around and asked" scenario (close range) vs a turned around...walked a number of yards up to the guy and confronted him.....

Maybe. If you're following me at 100 yards, and I turn and start coming back toward you, wouldnt you have ample opportunity to avoid me?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Steve]

....Steve

Nicely, done...two insults in the shape of a question which allows you to escape moderator attention. The first insult is calling me a coward, the second calling me a racist...in such a way as to keep our friends from acting on it.

Why this question? Was it because I responded to your question about if the race of the actors in the Zimmerman case were reversed what would actually be the narrative?

....Steve

I gave two real world examples of exactly what you asked for...and you responded with this question...because the actual cases prove you wrong...or right because the actual media coverage of the event are so different...

Why is it again that I haven't insulted you in anyway, I haven't attacked you in any way in my responses and yet you feel the need to attack me? Again, it is your side of the argument that has attacked first. I haven't attacked you and yet you felt the need to attack me...

Not intended as a personal insult. It occurred to me that many of your positions are fear based. I thought I'd ask. And I'm as subject to the rules as anyone else. If you think I'm breaking a rule, report me.

Regarding your responses, you said that it would be much less newsworthy. I agreed with you.

I think, ultimately, Zimmerman will be acquitted. Do you think a black dude in similar circumstances would be? Statistically, its not nearly as likely.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Steve]

Stalking only applies if someone is following for no legitimate purpose...Its arguable that Z was legitimately following someone he thought suspicious (backed up by this 911 statements)..the fact that the person wasn't doing anything illegal doesn't convert the action into "stalking".

If I see a stranger walking down my street looking into car windows and I follow him, Im not "stalking".....

I see your point, Tgace, and maybe stalking isn't the right word. Consider that you're walking in a residential neighborhood, and someone is following you, because they think you're a "suspect". What would you do? What if you knew the guy by reputation as being hostile, you knew he had 40 or so lbs on you and he had a chip on his shoulder?

I think I'd call 911 now, but at 16 or 17, I'm not sure that would occur to me. What do you think the 17 year old Tgace would have done?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Tgace]

Maybe. If you're following me at 100 yards, and I turn and start coming back toward you, wouldnt you have ample opportunity to avoid me?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Do I have to?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Tgace]

I see your point, Tgace, and maybe stalking isn't the right word. Consider that you're walking in a residential neighborhood, and someone is following you, because they think you're a "suspect". What would you do? What if you knew the guy by reputation as being hostile, you knew he had 40 or so lbs on you and he had a chip on his shoulder?

I think I'd call 911 now, but at 16 or 17, I'm not sure that would occur to me. What do you think the 17 year old Tgace would have done?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Doesn't matter really...in this situation the real issue is who initiated physical force first...who escalated to deadly physical force first and were either of them justified by law. This "assault by following" or "the nosey neighborhood watch dude deserved an *** kicking" are not really legal rationalizations when it comes to justified use of force.

This of course assuming M swung/physically assaulted first...we only have one version on that. But we do have witnesses saying Z was on the receiving end of a GNP.

What I would have done at 17 or not wouldn't change the legality of what I did. Maybe I would have popped the nosey prick....but I would have been wrong.

Most likely....and this is just my opinion....what we had here was a "$#%& this white/Hispanic/whatever guy profiling me and following me around calling the cops...I'm gonna kick his ***." Maybe an understandable emotion...but not a legal one. Was the *** kicking deserving of a lethal response? I don't know.....

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Steve]

Do I have to?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

If you don't, you're choosing confrontation, not self defense. Right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Carol]

If you don't, you're choosing confrontation, not self defense. Right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Not necessarily. The act of reversing direction itself alone does not indicate a choice. Reversing direction plus other factors may, but not just the act of turning around.

 

[Tgace]

If you don't, you're choosing confrontation, not self defense. Right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

It's not a confrontation or self-defense till the threatened/immanent use of physical force presents itself.

 

[Steve]

Not necessarily. The act of reversing direction itself alone does not indicate a choice. Reversing direction plus other factors may, but not just the act of turning around.

Of course it's a choice. I'm following you at 100 yards. You have ample opportunity to choose a course of action.

If You move away to avoid a confrontation, and i follow you, then the roles have been reversed.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Tgace]

Of course it's a choice. I'm following you at 100 yards. You have ample opportunity to choose a course of action.

If You move away to avoid a confrontation, and i follow you, then the roles have been reversed.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Following in and of itself is not physical force of which you would be legally obligated to retreat from. Theres nothing illegal about asking "who are you and what are you doing here?" The proper response of which would be "Im walking home" or "go **** yourself I don't have to answer to you"...not a punch in the face.