Can an aggressor act in self defense?

[Tgace]

Didn't say it was a good charge -- just a more viable charge than murder. This is a show trial, after the press and the Obama administration made it quite clear that they weren't going to accept a finding by the prosecutor that Zimmerman was justified, and shouldn't be prosecuted.

Of course, I fully expect riots, whether or not Zimmerman is convicted.

Yeah....agreed.

Nothing says protest like hurting innocent people and damaging property.....

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[billc]

A key point...Zimmerman was on the phone with the dispatcher as he was following Martin. The whole conversation was trying to get the police to where Martin was seen so they could deal with him. If he had planned on gunning Martin down...he would ha e shot him...and then called the police. Remember, he knew the police were on the way, as per the dispatcher...and when he was told he didn't have to follow Martin, he said okay, and if you listen to e call his breathing slowed.

As to the main idea in the thread, when the aggressor stops aggressing and the defender then starts aggressing.

 

[Steve]

Regarding Zimmerman, I don't personally think he intended to kill him. I do, however, believe that by aggressively pursuing him, he provoked a confrontation.

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[Brian R. VanCise]

Steve I think you were given some good information by both jks9199 and tgace earlier.

I think with this case we have a situation where we just don't know. We don't know who initiated physical contact, who was the aggressor, etc. What we do know is that we have one side of the story and that is pretty much it. (we are not getting the other side) With that and all the testimony and evidence I think that the charge is just not provable by the prosecution. They are going to lose. Having said that I think Zimmerman is a total tool plus a fool and is responsible for the whole thing as he just should have kept his distance and let the police respond. In the end he probably gets off but..... loses in a civil court wrongful death case. His life is ruined, Trayvon Martin life is ruined and both sides of family and friends lives are affected negatively!

Having lived in an inner city for awhile aka Detroit and grown up around Flint I can tell you I have seen some pretty interesting stuff from crazy people and the police. Most people are really good citizens and most police are really good people too. In any group there is always a small percentage of total jerks! So be smart, be aware and prepared!

 

[Tgace]

I don't know if "aggressively pursued" has been defined. As I understand it Z never got significantly close to M...it was M who turned and came up to Z.

It seems like we are portraying Z as having ran right up to M and confronting him...I'm not certain that's the case.

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[billc]

Well, from the only account that matters, Martin's friend on the phone with him shows he initiated conversation with Z. This supports Z's version of how the actual encounter began.

I think before you can judge Zimmerman's actions you also have to examine who Martin actually was instead of the young, small, child he is portrayed as by all the media.

 

[Steve]

I don't know if "aggressively pursued" has been defined. As I understand it Z never got significantly close to M...it was M who turned and came up to Z.

It seems like we are portraying Z as having ran right up to M and confronting him...I'm not certain that's the case.

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Regarding Zimmerman, my understanding is that he pursued Martin for a significant length of time, and over some distance, not hiding it. That is what I mean by aggressive pursuit. It's dark, and someone who is obviously hostile is obviously tailing you. I'd be nervous. Wouldn't you? At some point, a decision has to be made whether to fight or flee.

The disconnect for me is how Martin, the kid who wasn't doing anything wrong, was being followed by a known overzealous cop wannabe, and is now dead, is somehow to blame, as some here are trying to cast him. How can he be other than the victim? I don't get it. I have a pretty vivid imagination, but can't picture a sequence of events in which he is not the victim.

Let's say this isn't Zimmerman and Martin. You're a teenager, in the dark, being tailed by someone whom you believe has ill intent. You cut through some yards and try to lose the guy, but he's made clear he isn't letting up. You aren't armed, but think flight isn't viable, for whatever reason. You turn and confront your pursuer. It gets physical and you believe your life is in danger.

Are you acting in self defense?

Is your pursuer?

I'm on an iPad, and if I've missed some posts, I apologize. I didn't pay much attention to the back and forth between Tgace and elder. If there's something there, I'll go back.

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[Steve]

Well, from the only account that matters, Martin's friend on the phone with him shows he initiated conversation with Z. This supports Z's version of how the actual encounter began.

I think before you can judge Zimmerman's actions you also have to examine who Martin actually was instead of the young, small, child he is portrayed as by all the media.

Okay. Lets say you're a pregnant, drug addicted, high school drop out, kleptomaniac walking alone at night, being followed by a known, over zealous neighborhood watch, cop wannabe who, you believe is dangerous.

How does that make you any less the victim? I still don't get it. Even if Martin were a gang member (which I don't think he was), explain how he goes from being pursued to aggressor? He couldn't have initiated the confrontation, because we know that Zimmerman was actively pursuing him. Isn't that initiating a confrontation?


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[billc]

It's dark, and someone who is obviously hostile is obviously tailing you.

How do you know what Zimmerman looked like? what kind of attitude did Martin have before the attack? His past behavior would shed some light on that. His tweets would show that he apparently liked fighting, mma style, and that he was agitated about a fight he had lost against some other guy. he tweets and his behavior problems at home and in school have also been excluded from evidence so far. He was living with his dad because his mother kicked him out to live with other relatives who also couldn't live with him...so he was sent to his dad. Those kind of issues change his possible demeanor on that night.

 

[billc]

also, he was close enough to his father's girlfriends townhouse and could have made it there avoiding Zimmerman altogether. if that is the case, with the fact that he initiated verbal contact with Zimmerman, he could have become the aggressor at that point. it was dark, he had 3 inches in height on Zimmerman without the addition of the hoodie making him look even bigger, an he apparenltly may have surprised Zimmerman. According to testimony, from the girl, he was already hostile to Zimmerman's presence. So sure, he could have become the aggressor very easily.

 

[Tames D]

Okay. Lets say you're a pregnant, drug addicted, high school drop out, kleptomaniac walking alone at night, being followed by a known, over zealous neighborhood watch, cop wannabe who, you believe is dangerous.

How does that make you any less the victim? I still don't get it. Even if Martin were a gang member (which I don't think he was), explain how he goes from being pursued to aggressor? He couldn't have initiated the confrontation, because we know that Zimmerman was actively pursuing him. Isn't that initiating a confrontation?


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Wow. just wow

 

[billc]

Other than the media describing Zimmerman as an over zealous neighborhood watch, cop wannabe, (do you realize the woman in charge of the neighborhood watch from the police dept. offered him an upgrade to his status where he would have been given a car and a uniform...and he turned it down as was revealed in court ) how do you define "over zealous and cop wannabe."

Here is a look at Martin and the behavior issues that could turn him into an aggressor...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/new_evidence_shows_trayvons_life_unraveling.html

This story was pure fable from the beginning, and the attorneys knew it. Even before going public, they moved to seal Martin's school records, and with good reason. Consider this exchange between Martin and a female friend on November 21, three months before his death. After he told her he was "tired and sore" from a fight, she asked him why he fought. "Bae" is shorthand for "babe."
MARTIN: Cause man dat ***** snitched on me
FRIEND: Bae y you always fightinqq man, you got suspended?
MARTIN: Naw we thumped afta skool in a duckd off spot
FRIEND: Ohh, Well Damee
MARTIN: I lost da 1st round but won da 2nd nd 3rd . . . .
FRIEND: Ohhh So It Wass 3 Rounds? Damn well at least yu wonn lol but yuu needa stop fighting bae Forreal
MARTIN: Nay im not done with fool..... he gone hav 2 see me again
FRIEND: Nooo... Stop, yuu waint gonn bee satisified till yuh suspended again, huh?
MARTIN: Naw but he aint breed nuff 4 me, only his nose

As his social media accounts show, Martin was a student of mixed martial arts. The fight followed the MMA format. A day later, he would tell a friend that his opponent "got mo hits cause in da 1st round he had me on da ground nd I couldn't do ntn." As his girlfriend complained, Martin was "always" fighting. He was also something of a sadist. His opponent, after all, did not bleed enough. Why might this be relevant?
Witness #6, the best of the eyewitnesses to the shooting, told the Sanford PD that a there was a "black man in a black hoodie on top of either a white guy ... or an Hispanic guy in a red sweater on the ground yelling out help," and that black man on top was "throwing down blows on the guy MMA [mixed martial arts] style."

On November 22, the day after the MMA-style fight, Martin told a friend that his mother "just kicked me out" and that he had to move in with his father. When the friend asked why, Martin answered, "Da police caught me outta skool."
"U a hoodlum," said the friend. "Naw," said Martin. "I'm a gangsta." Incredibly, his death would transform this wannabe gangster into a saintly little boy, or, in the words of Florida State Attorney Angela Corey, a "precious victim."
On December 21, 2011, Martin told a friend, "dam I just got in trouble 4 sum sh** I aint even do." His mother, Sybrina Fulton, was dismayed. "Pack up your clothes now," she texted him. "I love u but I think u being w/ ur Dad is best."
Martin lived with his mother only intermittently and spent even less time with his father, who was then living with a sister in the Miami area.
On December 22, Martin confided to a girlfriend, "I got in trouble." She asked, "What did you do now." As was typical, Martin took no responsibility. "I aint do ntn . . . . call me." The friend had other priorities: "I'm about to get my nails done so you gotta wait a few."
On the day before Christmas, Martin's mother, Sybrina Fulton, texted him: "I'm concerned about u but I'm praying for u and I want U to pray for yourself EVERYDAY, ok." She was texting the son she used to know. The Trayvon who was about to turn seventeen, she knew next to nothing about.

Hmmmmmm....He was something of a sadist?

Is this the kind of kid who could have become the aggressor, as compared to the small, innocent looking child we are shown in the media?

 

[billc]

Is this the kind of kid who could turn into an aggressor?

In between these texts, Martin was negotiating to buy a handgun with a friend. "U wanna share a .380?" he asked. Guns excited him. "U got heat??" he enthused earlier upon learning that a friend had access to a gun.
Upon leaving Miami, Martin seemed to be growing angrier. On February 21, he texted a girlfriend who was pouting about another girl, presumably in Sanford. Wrote Martin, "f*** u cuz I neva text ha 2 day I made dat sh** up so u leav me df alone bout it."
Two days later on February 23, a friend tried to warn Martin off some behavior that troubled even the friend. "I ain't ya parent," he texted him, "but gsh** thro it away." Martin was not in the mood to be lectured to. "Y u gotta knock my hustle??" he shot back.

Of course, the judge won't allow this in court...yet...

This article shows that if he had wanted, Martin could have avoided Zimmerman altogether...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012...estions_about_trayvon_martins_final_hour.html

According to the audio released by the police, after Martin stared at Zimmerman and began to approach him, the teen took off in the opposite direction, toward the rear entrance of the community and toward the apartment he was staying in. The distance from where Zimmerman began his call, near the mailboxes by the clubhouse, to the apartment of Brandy Green, where Martin was staying, is roughly 850 feet. Someone in good shape could probably run the distance in less than a minute and walk it in two. From the start of Zimmerman's phone call, Martin had about six minutes to get home. But the teenager was apparently not interested in returning to the apartment of his dad's fiancée and reporting the suspicious man to 911. He was shot about 550 feet from where Zimmerman began his call, about 300 feet from Brandy Green's apartment.

If it is possible that he could have made it home, why did the confrontation even occur?

 

[ballen0351]

Steve is there any situation you can think of where a victim can become the suspect? Putting the Martin case aside just in general can the rolls of victim and suspect be flipped? I only ask because there are many that say no. Once you start as the suspect you get what's coming to you. You brought it on your self.

 

[Kurai]

Ballen, If ever I'm in your neck of the woods, I'd be happy to buy you a pint. I have a ton of respect for you.

I'll give an example. I am an educated black man that has been followed, observed, etc., more than I can count, over the course of my lifetime. I am a law abiding citizen, with a ccw, that works a white-collar job, for my state government. I have a home in a cul-de-sac, in a decent neighborhood. I'll be the first to say as far as Martin-Zimmerman case, I don't know. Don't have enough facts.

I have been profiled, as dwb (driving while black), walking while black, shopping while black, etc. I've even been "profiled" as an attempted arm robber, because I was chatting late at night with a friend while he was closing the video store he managed, and after closing we were stepping across the street to the local pub. I've made a point to be absolutely sure of the laws in my state because of the previously mentioned. I have been a suspect for simply being black. In truth, I'm of black-hispanic-european descent, but the first thought of people without knowing my name, is black. When I was younger I changed styles after getting the snot beat out of me for defending someone else, (he brought two friends).

It has changed over time, but still has a long way to go. The statement of "Once you start as the suspect you get what's coming to you. You brought it on your self.", I truly believe to be off base. A good friend of mine years ago explained it to someone. She's lesbian. She described it as, "I can hide my sexuality from scrutiny, he can't hide his race."

It is truly sad, that I'm not viewed as, just another "American", who believes in the constitution, and would die for his country in a heartbeat, or protecting others. That's the life I've lived though.

Steve, feel free to use me as your example. I'm a martial artist with a ccw. I do carry where-ever, when-ever it's legal for me to do so.

 

[ballen0351]

It is truly sad, that I'm not viewed as, just another "American", who believes in the constitution, and would die for his country in a heartbeat, or protecting others. That's the life I've lived though.

Steve, feel free to use me as your example. I'm a martial artist with a ccw. I do carry where-ever, when-ever it's legal for me to do so.

The issue I have with the Cry's of racism (not saying that's what you were doing) is that its so over played that its meaningless now. As a police officer I get called a racist at least once a day. That's by all races. I've even had white guys say I was picking on them because they ate white. Race to me is just a way to describe a person no different then saying they are fat skinny blue eyed tall short. It means nothing. Now don't get me wrong there are racists out there. The shopping while black ect ect isn't just a black thing. When I worked under cover they same guy following you around for shopping while black would be following me around as well. Then you have phony outrage over race issues like this Paula Dean story you cant have a serious discussion about not using the N word until its removed from rap music and popular teen vocabulary or the Washington Redskins story. People look for any reason they can to scream racism. It make real instances of it just seem less impactfull because of the 100s of cases of BS boy who cried wolf stories.

 

[Steve]

How do you know what Zimmerman looked like? what kind of attitude did Martin have before the attack? His past behavior would shed some light on that. His tweets would show that he apparently liked fighting, mma style, and that he was agitated about a fight he had lost against some other guy. he tweets and his behavior problems at home and in school have also been excluded from evidence so far. He was living with his dad because his mother kicked him out to live with other relatives who also couldn't live with him...so he was sent to his dad. Those kind of issues change his possible demeanor on that night.

As I said before, regardless of who Martin is or isn't, didn't Zimmerman initiate the confrontation? I honestly don't see how anyone could believe otherwise.


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[Steve]

Wow. just wow

?


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[Steve]

Steve is there any situation you can think of where a victim can become the suspect? Putting the Martin case aside just in general can the rolls of victim and suspect be flipped? I only ask because there are many that say no. Once you start as the suspect you get what's coming to you. You brought it on your self.

Ballen, this is exactly what I'm interested in discussing. The conversation has centered around Zimmerman/Martin, but your post above is the central issue I had in mind.

I can imagine some circumstances, but they're along the lines of a protracted situation, where the initial victim retaliates.

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[Tgace]

Regarding Zimmerman, my understanding is that he pursued Martin for a significant length of time, and over some distance, not hiding it. That is what I mean by aggressive pursuit. It's dark, and someone who is obviously hostile is obviously tailing you. I'd be nervous. Wouldn't you? At some point, a decision has to be made whether to fight or flee.

The disconnect for me is how Martin, the kid who wasn't doing anything wrong, was being followed by a known overzealous cop wannabe, and is now dead, is somehow to blame, as some here are trying to cast him. How can he be other than the victim? I don't get it. I have a pretty vivid imagination, but can't picture a sequence of events in which he is not the victim.

Let's say this isn't Zimmerman and Martin. You're a teenager, in the dark, being tailed by someone whom you believe has ill intent. You cut through some yards and try to lose the guy, but he's made clear he isn't letting up. You aren't armed, but think flight isn't viable, for whatever reason. You turn and confront your pursuer. It gets physical and you believe your life is in danger.

Are you acting in self defense?

Is your pursuer?

I'm on an iPad, and if I've missed some posts, I apologize. I didn't pay much attention to the back and forth between Tgace and elder. If there's something there, I'll go back.

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It depends on how faraway this supposed pursuer was and what he was doing...if Z was on a cell phone and 100 yard away....M could have called 911 (instead of his GF) himself and said he was being followed. If Z was 3 paces behind Z that's another story. The version of events I have read is that M turned around and came up to Z (who was still on his cell...not lurking in the shadows with a drawn gun) and asked "why are you following me?"...to which Z replied "what are you doing here?"...then pushing and fighting started. Z's statement to M is a pretty clear explination of why he was following. IMO the aggressor is the first person who laid hands on the other. There's 911 evidence that Z's state of mind was that he was following a suspicions person...not seeking to chase and tackle someone.

Is the right self defence response to "what are you doing here?" a punch in the face? Assuming that M made first contact which unfortunately there is nobody but Z to corroborate that fact.

That's not to say that Z's suspicions were accurate...but accuracy isn't the standard in self defence....was Z responding with deadly force to deadly force?

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