Can an aggressor act in self defense?

[elder999]

How is that? They are on the other end of the state?

Hell..our policies, proceedures and disciplinary process is vastly different even from the major city adjacent to me.

I think your trolling now...

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You know, I'm in my sixth decade, now, Tony.

Most of the first four were spent in NY State.

In that time I've gone from "Negro," to "Black" to "Afro-American" to "Black" and to the current "African-American," and, while in my case the perjorative "Halfrican American" literally applies ("Which half?" I continue to ask...:lfao: ) it is how the world sees me, and the first thing that cops-everywhere-assess, unless it's the driving of my car-in which case it's the second thing they assess.

In none of those decades has it been otherwise. I do not-cannot-trust the police, especially in any jurisdiction in upstate NY or Long Island, and very little I've ever seen has shown me otherwise-my father being searched in front of his family, while wearing his lclerical garb[, in 1968-simply because we were the only "black" family in our Westchester neighborhood-the first one, in fact. Or me, being roughly searched in that same neighborhood while walking my dog, simply because I answered, when asked what I was doing, "I'm out for a walk," and a neighbor's house had been burglarized-never mind that I was two doors down from the house I'd grown up in, an entire block away from the house that had been burglarized, and had no criminal record.Or the time I watched two NY State troopers put a thumping on a dying man's wife and her friend in an ER waiting room, in front of small children-one of whom was mine....I have no reason to trust any policeman, and no reason to do anything but mistrust them until they prove otherwise, and the reason I cannot trust them-any of themis because of the color of my skin. It is also, of course, the nature of their very human business, and the way they conduct it, but the police are not to be trusted, especially if you're black.

 

[Tgace]

Tony?

What's your opinion on black cops?

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[elder999]

Does a dispatcher telling you to do something make it "illegal" to ignore them?

I don't know about this agency, but most police dispatchers are not sworn LE.

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No, but the laws against harassment and stalking-especially in the state of Florida-make it illegal. While he didn't receive a lawful order from law enforcement, Zimmerman was-as I posted-advised not to do what he did.

ANd, while he may be acquitted, I predict that, ala OJ Simpson, he's going to lose the civil suit, wrongful death trial.....unless Martin's parents keep that Krump character as their attorney....:lol:

 

[arnisador]

ANd, while he may be acquitted, I predict that, ala OJ Simpson, he's going to lose the civil suit

Yeah, reasonable odds--unless the stand-your-ground law includes a provision for civil responsibility too.

 

[elder999]

Tony?

What's your opinion on black cops?

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Sorry-I'm even worse with names face-to-face....:lol:

Listen, at the end of the day-most cops are okay, and for every ***, there've been some who really are just doing their job. The nature of your job, though, makes you suspicious, and you make countless judgements as though your lives depend upon them, and sometimes they really do. I've worked closely with law enforcement under several different circumstances through the last three decades, and I don't have a generally low opinion of them or their professionalism-I have a low opinion of how their job influences their judgements and actions, and how their drive to interdict often leads them to intrude upon citizens' rights-especially minority citizens, but citizens in general. Heck, I even dated an instructor at the NYPD academy.....that was nice!

No one should trust the police, too much, though....

As for "black cops," depending upon the jurisdiction, they can be even worse when dealing with a minority-one of the guys who frisked me in front of my suburban childhood home (and"frisked" is just wrong-they reached into the pockets of my field jacket and removed the contents, insisting that they had PC the entire time) was black-I never specified race, though-you all are blue, or grey, or whatever color-call it "blue."

 

[Steve]

I'm okay with wherever the thread goes, but there is already a thread about the actual Zimmerman trial. I am really interested in how an aggressor becomes a victim.

How about this? Say I'm a mugger, armed with a handgun, and You believe I'm stalking you in a secluded area. I follow you and you are growing increasingly agitated and worried. You decide that flight is impractical for whatever reason and choose to confront me. I close on you and we struggle.

You take my gun from me and shoot me. Self defense? I think clearly yes.

What if I take my gun and shoot you. Self defense? I don't know... I lean toward not. I struggle to imagine how it could be.

Now, I know that Zimmerman wasn't a mugger. But does that change the scenario in a meaningful way? And if yes, how?

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[Tgace]

No, but the laws against harassment and stalking-especially in the state of Florida-make it illegal. While he didn't receive a lawful order from law enforcement, Zimmerman was-as I posted-advised not to do what he did.

ANd, while he may be acquitted, I predict that, ala OJ Simpson, he's going to lose the civil suit, wrongful death trial.....unless Martin's parents keep that Krump character as their attorney....:lol:

As long as the persons course of action is for a reasonable purpose its not stalking or harassment. Its arguable that Martins actions...if Z's version of events is true...were at least slightly suspicious. Following someone walking around my neighbors yards to see what hes doing is not unreasonable...stalking... or harassment.

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[elder999]

As long as the persons course of action is for a reasonable purpose its not stalking or harassment. Its arguable that Martins actions...if Z's version of events is true...were at least slightly suspicious. Following someone walking around my neighbors yards to see what hes doing is not unreasonable...stalking... or harassment.

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Zimmerman alleges that he got out of his vehicle because he didn't know what street he was on.

In a neighborhood where he lived.................

That only has three streets..................

Following someone in the dark of night, when you're not law-enforcement, and an apparently stupid neighborhood watch member (I mean, how effective can he be if he "didn't know what street he was on?" :lfao: ) is pretty criminal in my opinion, and makes following a kid-while armed-criminal, in and of itself....

 

[Tames D]

You know, I'm in my sixth decade, now, Tony.

Most of the first four were spent in NY State.

In that time I've gone from "Negro," to "Black" to "Afro-American" to "Black" and to the current "African-American," and, while in my case the perjorative "Halfrican American" literally applies ("Which half?" I continue to ask...:lfao: ) it is how the world sees me, and the first thing that cops-everywhere-assess, unless it's the driving of my car-in which case it's the second thing they assess.

In none of those decades has it been otherwise. I do not-cannot-trust the police, especially in any jurisdiction in upstate NY or Long Island, and very little I've ever seen has shown me otherwise-my father being searched in front of his family, while wearing his lclerical garb[, in 1968-simply because we were the only "black" family in our Westchester neighborhood-the first one, in fact. Or me, being roughly searched in that same neighborhood while walking my dog, simply because I answered, when asked what I was doing, "I'm out for a walk," and a neighbor's house had been burglarized-never mind that I was two doors down from the house I'd grown up in, an entire block away from the house that had been burglarized, and had no criminal record.Or the time I watched two NY State troopers put a thumping on a dying man's wife and her friend in an ER waiting room, in front of small children-one of whom was mine....I have no reason to trust any policeman, and no reason to do anything but mistrust them until they prove otherwise, and the reason I cannot trust them-any of themis because of the color of my skin. It is also, of course, the nature of their very human business, and the way they conduct it, but the police are not to be trusted, especially if you're black.

Dude,
You and I live in totally different worlds. Although I can't relate, I feel for you. I would not wish your past experiences on my worst enemy. I hope you can find peace. You're a good man.

 

[Tgace]

I'm okay with wherever the thread goes, but there is already a thread about the actual Zimmerman trial. I am really interested in how an aggressor becomes a victim.

How about this? Say I'm a mugger, armed with a handgun, and You believe I'm stalking you in a secluded area. I follow you and you are growing increasingly agitated and worried. You decide that flight is impractical for whatever reason and choose to confront me. I close on you and we struggle.

You take my gun from me and shoot me. Self defense? I think clearly yes.

What if I take my gun and shoot you. Self defense? I don't know... I lean toward not. I struggle to imagine how it could be.

Now, I know that Zimmerman wasn't a mugger. But does that change the scenario in a meaningful way? And if yes, how?

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You've already stated your intent was to commit a crime. I don't know what you are asking here.

Most self defence laws like my States say that you change from attacker to victim when you clearly withdraw from an encounter and the other person continues. As long as you start as a mugger you are the attacker until you surrender and the other person then tries to kill you.....

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[ballen0351]

Zimmerman alleges that he got out of his vehicle because he didn't know what street he was on.

In a neighborhood where he lived.................

That only has three streets..................

Following someone in the dark of night, when you're not law-enforcement, and an apparently stupid neighborhood watch member (I mean, how effective can he be if he "didn't know what street he was on?" :lfao: ) is pretty criminal in my opinion, and makes following a kid-while armed-criminal, in and of itself....

Ive forgot where I was before under stress. Starting calling for more units and cant remember where I was. It happens. Its easy to judge sitting behind your keyboard in the safety of your own home.

 

[elder999]

Ive forgot where I was before under stress. Starting calling for more units and cant remember where I was. It happens. Its easy to judge sitting behind your keyboard in the safety of your own home.

Actually, Zimmerman was "in the safety of his own home," as far as those three streets go-he could have reported the wrong one, and the cops would have gotten there.....he gets no pass on "under stress" prior to Trayvon Martin's confronting him at all.....

 

[ballen0351]

I'm okay with wherever the thread goes, but there is already a thread about the actual Zimmerman trial. I am really interested in how an aggressor becomes a victim.

How about this? Say I'm a mugger, armed with a handgun, and You believe I'm stalking you in a secluded area. I follow you and you are growing increasingly agitated and worried. You decide that flight is impractical for whatever reason and choose to confront me. I close on you and we struggle.

You take my gun from me and shoot me. Self defense? I think clearly yes.

What if I take my gun and shoot you. Self defense? I don't know... I lean toward not. I struggle to imagine how it could be.

Now, I know that Zimmerman wasn't a mugger. But does that change the scenario in a meaningful way? And if yes, how?

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Its not really that hard to understand. You go from Victim to suspect as soon as you have gotten the upper hand and the other person has given up. For example. You try to rob me. You Pull you gun and point it at me. I attack you in self defense. You fall and bang your head and are knocked out. The fights over because Im no longer in danger I have no more legal right to defend myself. If I then jump on you and start pounding you Im now the suspect and the mugger is now the victim. They are two different crimes You can still be charged with attempting to rob me, but I can also be charged with assaulting you.
You see it alot in police encounters. I go to arrest you and you fight me. Were now in a fight and I punch you in the face and you give up. If I then give you an extra "lump" to teach you a lesson Ive just assaulted you.
Where I see it alot is a robber goes into a store pulls a gun on the clerk. The clerk then pulls his gun and the robber runs away. The clerk chases after robber and when he gets to the door he starts shooting into the parking lot at the robber thats still running. If he hit him and killed him In my opinion thats a crime. He was no long in danger and had no reason to defend himself.

 

[ballen0351]

Actually, Zimmerman was "in the safety of his own home," as far as those three streets go-he could have reported the wrong one, and the cops would have gotten there.....he gets no pass on "under stress" prior to Trayvon Martin's confronting him at all.....

Says the guy thats never walked up to see what a suspicious person is doing. Hes taking a part in the safety of his community. If more people gave a crap about others and where they live we wouldnt have half the crime we do now.

 

[Tgace]

Zimmerman alleges that he got out of his vehicle because he didn't know what street he was on.

In a neighborhood where he lived.................

That only has three streets..................

Following someone in the dark of night, when you're not law-enforcement, and an apparently stupid neighborhood watch member (I mean, how effective can he be if he "didn't know what street he was on?" :lfao: ) is pretty criminal in my opinion, and makes following a kid-while armed-criminal, in and of itself....

Ever try to give your location while under stress? Ive drawn a blank on what street I was on a few times when I was a rookie. Getting out of your car? Granted that's odd...

If he reasonably believed he was following a suspicious person...however unadviseable or ill considered that was...it is hardly "criminal" or becomes stalking. Simply having a legal gun on you doesnt change that fact. If he drew his gun and menaced someone simply for "looking suspicious" that a different story. If he recognized Martin and wanted to $#@% with him...that's a different story.

If in an alternate universe Martin was a burglar and Z followed till the cops caught him he would be getting a citizens award.

I think Z was an overzealous wannabe, but that doesn't mean its not possible that his actions that night (following someone he thought suspicious) were unreasonable on their face..I'm not convinced that what happened was murder. Manslaughter? Possibly. Self defence? Possibly.

I agree...his getting sued is more likely than a murder conviction...but we will see.

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[elder999]

Says the guy thats never walked up to see what a suspicious person is doing. Hes taking a part in the safety of his community. If more people gave a crap about others and where they live we wouldnt have half the crime we do now.

And that is a monumentally erroneous assumption on your part-I can only speak of the burglar I caught in my neighborhood growing up, or the various things I've done for neighbor's safety over the years.

I can barely utter the things I have done for the greater world community's safety, simply because I could, and because I "give a crap about others," but I think Zimmerman's actions were wrong in this situation.

And if I'd been following Trayvon Martin, he wouldn't have seen me.

 

[ballen0351]

And if I'd been following Trayvon Martin, he wouldn't have seen me.

Defeats the point of a neighborhood watch

 

[ballen0351]

And that is a monumentally erroneous assumption on your part-I can only speak of the burglar I caught in my neighborhood growing up, or the various things I've done for neighbor's safety over the years.

Were you frightened? If you had to give an accurate report of what you saw in the moment could you?

I can barely utter the things I have done for the greater world community's safety, simply because I could, and because I "give a crap about others," but I think Zimmerman's actions were wrong in this situation.
.

Depends on whos story you believe.

 

[elder999]

Were you frightened? If you had to give an accurate report of what you saw in the moment could you?

Depends on whos story you believe.

Was I frightened? Of course, Did I give an accurate report of what I saw in the moment?

Hell, I took pictures, knowing that it might mean a builet if I got caught...or worse.

"Give an accurate report..." :lfao:

 

[jks9199]

I think that if Zimmerman approached Martin and flashed his gun or threatened/stated he had a gun than sure manslaughter...but approaching a person isn't in and of itself a reckless act. If Z approached M and was summarily ground and pounded and/or his gun was now exposed and in play..that changes things IMO. Of course with no independent witness to verify who knows what REALLY happened?

Didn't say it was a good charge -- just a more viable charge than murder. This is a show trial, after the press and the Obama administration made it quite clear that they weren't going to accept a finding by the prosecutor that Zimmerman was justified, and shouldn't be prosecuted.

Of course, I fully expect riots, whether or not Zimmerman is convicted.