Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

[Dirty Dog]

No but you can insult the person in charge of the dojo, the chief instructor. When you call a dojo a McDojo that's an insult to the chief instructor.

Only if your self-worth is determined by the opinions of others.
I may have suggested that before...

 

[frank raud]

Why do you keep congratulating me?

And I can't answer a question that's unanswerable.

Congratulations.

 

[dvcochran]

Alright well there is also the issue of students being able to defend themselves in real life confrontations on the street, in school, ect. If a dojo produces students who can defend themselves then you know its a good dojo, if they produce students who routinely get pounded in confrontations, then you know they're a McDojo.

For that to be an accurate assertion, every person from every Dojo/Dojang would have to be assaulted for the sample data to be accurate. I am very thankful this is not realistic.
In large measure, a person being able to defend themselves has more to do with their upbringing and mental makeup. The skills learned from a MA is an augmentation. Not the end all, be all fix for being able to defend oneself.
Adding competition to the equation is when this discussion can get blurry.

 

[lklawson]

Alright well there is also the issue of students being able to defend themselves in real life confrontations on the street, in school, ect. If a dojo produces students who can defend themselves then you know its a good dojo, if they produce students who routinely get pounded in confrontations, then you know they're a McDojo.

What if that's not why they're training or what they're training for?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

What if that's not why they're training or what they're training for?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

This is a good question and it comes up all the time. But what gets people through the door is seldom what keeps them there, at least in the McDojo business model. If standardization is intrinsic to the model, then you must have a sophisticated orientation process to get people to buy into what you're selling and pull them away from special orders.

So, I think a lot of what folks are training for stems from marketing and expectations of the school. Some of the marketing that goes into styles is pretty sophisticated, and it just gets amped up as they are oriented to the school. And to be clear, this isn't unique to martial arts schools... this is just what salesmen do.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

For that to be an accurate assertion, every person from every Dojo/Dojang would have to be assaulted for the sample data to be accurate. I am very thankful this is not realistic.
In large measure, a person being able to defend themselves has more to do with their upbringing and mental makeup. The skills learned from a MA is an augmentation. Not the end all, be all fix for being able to defend oneself.
Adding competition to the equation is when this discussion can get blurry.

Very nicely articulated.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is a good question and it comes up all the time. But what gets people through the door is seldom what keeps them there, at least in the McDojo business model. If standardization is intrinsic to the model, then you must have a sophisticated orientation process to get people to buy into what you're selling and pull them away from special orders.

So, I think a lot of what folks are training for stems from marketing and expectations of the school. Some of the marketing that goes into styles is pretty sophisticated, and it just gets amped up as they are oriented to the school. And to be clear, this isn't unique to martial arts schools... this is just what salesmen do.

We never advertised except an occasional run of flyers on notice boards. We got most students by word of mouth. If you couldn’t pay, Sifu Gale would have you do work at his house or muck out his horse stalls In exchange for training. People come through the door for myriad reasons and almost always stayed for completely different reasons. No kids, no gi, no belt, no rank, no tournaments, no breaking inanimate objects, no yelling, no macho bs, just hard work until you want to puke. He would tell us straight up “you come in here and do the work, do it more than you don’t do it and you will become it, there are no shortcuts.” Its like moving a mountain with a spoon, the process is the goal. Not many people are willing to work out like that, only those of us that were willing to submit to the training stayed and became part of the family. I imagine that my experience is not unique but also not very common. My Sifu included western boxing punches in our curriculum and removed traditional weapons training because he felt one was useful and the other somewhat antiquated. Would any of these details make us a mcdojo? I don’t know. I imagine a mcdojo as a standardized franchise type of business, which doesn’t necessarily mean bad product. The term mcdojo has a negative connotation because of the inference of cheap mass produced product easily obtained and consumed by the majority of the public. We (me) all like to feel like what we do and who we do it with is/are special. I believe that the insult comes as a result of feeling like that “specialness” being taken away with a word. It really just depends on what people want out of their training, there isn’t anything inherently wrong with a gi or belts or tournaments. I said before, what brings a person through the door is rarely the same thing that keeps them coming back year after year. Call it whatever you want.

 

[Steve]

We never advertised except an occasional run of flyers on notice boards. We got most students by word of mouth. If you couldn’t pay, Sifu Gale would have you do work at his house or muck out his horse stalls In exchange for training. People come through the door for myriad reasons and almost always stayed for completely different reasons. No kids, no gi, no belt, no rank, no tournaments, no breaking inanimate objects, no yelling, no macho bs, just hard work until you want to puke. He would tell us straight up “you come in here and do the work, do it more than you don’t do it and you will become it, there are no shortcuts.” Its like moving a mountain with a spoon, the process is the goal. Not many people are willing to work out like that, only those of us that were willing to submit to the training stayed and became part of the family. I imagine that my experience is not unique but also not very common.

Sounds like a good way to go about it. That kind of messaging is going to appeal to some folks. But since we're talking about McDojos here, I think the idea of a McDojo would be more like, "Come on in. You can do it and it will be comfortable and safe... and fun."

My Sifu included western boxing punches in our curriculum and removed traditional weapons training because he felt one was useful and the other somewhat antiquated. Would any of these details make us a mcdojo? I don’t know. I imagine a mcdojo as a standardized franchise type of business, which doesn’t necessarily mean bad product. The term mcdojo has a negative connotation because of the inference of cheap mass produced product easily obtained and consumed by the majority of the public. We (me) all like to feel like what we do and who we do it with is/are special. I believe that the insult comes as a result of feeling like that “specialness” being taken away with a word. It really just depends on what people want out of their training, there isn’t anything inherently wrong with a gi or belts or tournaments. I said before, what brings a person through the door is rarely the same thing that keeps them coming back year after year. Call it whatever you want.

Well, getting back to some things I said earlier... if it's meant to be insulting, it's an insult. But I view it as simply prioritizing profits by way of standardization over quality. Not to say you can't have quality... but that if there is a choice between sacrificing some quality for profit or vice versa, profits will be prioritized.

Regarding the rhetoric around martial arts salesmanship (i.e., some signs you might be in a mcdojo), if you say the first, and get some version of the second, you are being redirected:

• I want to learn to fight --> We don't teach people to fight; we teach them to defend themselves, and that looks different. (A common redirect)
• I want to learn fancy jumping kicks... that's badass --> Ha. Try that in a "real" fight. XMA and tricking isn't martial arts; it's an abomination. We teach real/serious martial arts here. (Seen in just about every thread on XMA, tricking, Parkour, etc).
• I want to get fit --> Get fit on your own time. We teach technique here. (Versions seen in some karate threads over the years)
• I want to get fit --> Muscles can actually get in the way, and make you slower and less capable of fighting. (I recall this specifically from some Wing Chun threads over the years)
• Should I compete? --> Competition is not self defense, and we discourage it because it reinforces bad habits that will get you killed. (this is pretty common)
• It seems like it will be hard --> My system is comfortable and nurturing, designed to teach you in a supportive and welcoming environment where you'll never even break a sweat. (a bit hyperbolic, but language like this is pretty easy to find on a lot of websites)

We see hints of it around here from time to time. You can see how in the early interactions with new posters, there is a lot of redirection... a lot of, "Look, you don't know better" and "Here's how it really works". Or something I saw recently, paraphrasing, "How long have you been training, so that I can figure out how to respond to you?" Which is a subtle way of saying, "You don't know as much as I do, and I am going to make sure you know it, so that you will be appropriately deferential in all future threads."

It's all about sales, subordinating other people, and convincing them that what you're selling is what they really want, regardless of what they say they want.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sounds like a good way to go about it. That kind of messaging is going to appeal to some folks. But since we're talking about McDojos here, I think the idea of a McDojo would be more like, "Come on in. You can do it and it will be comfortable and safe... and fun."



Well, getting back to some things I said earlier... if it's meant to be insulting, it's an insult. But I view it as simply prioritizing profits by way of standardization over quality. Not to say you can't have quality... but that if there is a choice between sacrificing some quality for profit or vice versa, profits will be prioritized.

Regarding the rhetoric around martial arts salesmanship (i.e., some signs you might be in a dojo), if you say the first, and get some version of the second, you are being redirected:

• I want to learn to fight --> We don't teach people to fight; we teach them to defend themselves, and that looks different. (A common redirect)
• I want to learn fancy jumping kicks... that's badass --> Ha. Try that in a "real" fight. XMA and tricking isn't martial arts; it's an abomination. We teach real/serious martial arts here. (Seen in just about every thread on XMA, tricking, Parkour, etc).
• I want to get fit --> Get fit on your own time. We teach technique here. (Versions seen in some karate threads over the years)
• I want to get fit --> Muscles can actually get in the way, and make you slower and less capable of fighting. (I recall this specifically from some Wing Chun threads over the years)
• Should I compete? --> Competition is not self defense, and we discourage it because it reinforces bad habits that will get you killed. (this is pretty common)
• It seems like it will be hard --> My system is comfortable and nurturing, designed to teach you in a supportive and welcoming environment where you'll never even break a sweat. (a bit hyperbolic, but language like this is pretty easy to find on a lot of websites)

We see hints of it around here from time to time. You can see how in the early interactions with new posters, there is a lot of redirection... a lot of, "Look, you don't know better" and "Here's how it really works". Or something I saw recently, paraphrasing, "How long have you been training, so that I can figure out how to respond to you?" Which is a subtle way of saying, "You don't know as much as I do, and I am going to make sure you know it, so that you will be appropriately deferential in all future threads."

It's all about sales, subordinating other people, and convincing them that what you're selling is what they really want, regardless of what they say they want.

Very well put. You and some others here are quite skilled at articulating your thoughts. I need some grammar retraining. Those are all very good points. It makes sense to me.

 

[Xue Sheng]

• I want to get fit --> Get fit on your own time. We teach technique here. (Versions seen in some karate threads over the years)

two excellent teacher I knew, one was Wing Chun the other was Xingyiquan. Both did not get into jumping jacks and push ups or any other sort of callisthenic at the beginning of class. Both felt they were there to teach Wing Chun and Xingyiquan, not jumping jacks and the calisthenics took up valuable class time

We see hints of it around here from time to time. You can see how in the early interactions with new posters, there is a lot of redirection... a lot of, "Look, you don't know better" and "Here's how it really works". Or something I saw recently, paraphrasing, "How long have you been training, so that I can figure out how to respond to you?" Which is a subtle way of saying, "You don't know as much as I do, and I am going to make sure you know it, so that you will be appropriately deferential in all future threads."

It's all about sales, subordinating other people, and convincing them that what you're selling is what they really want, regardless of what they say they want.

Years ago when I was going to Beijing my wife and her family were trying to set up some training for me in push hands. My sister-in-law found a guy and asked if he would be interested in training an American while he was in Beijing,. He was all for it, knew everything there was to know about push hands. My sister-in-law contacted my wife to let her know, my sister-in-law then went back to set up a schedule. The gentleman asked if I had done push hands before, she said yes. HE asked who trained him in America, she did not know my teachers name but she said my Shigong (Teacher's teacher) was Tung Ying Chieh. All of a sudden the guy did not know that much about push hands and backed out of the whole thing

 

[bill miller]

All of a sudden the guy did not know that much about push hands and backed out of the whole ting

oops!

 

[Dirty Dog]

two excellent teacher I knew, one was Wing Chun the other was Xingyiquan. Both did not get into jumping jacks and push ups or any other sort of callisthenic at the beginning of class. Both felt they were there to teach Wing Chun and Xingyiquan, not jumping jacks and the calisthenics took up valuable class time

Agree. Class time is for learning the art, not calisthenics.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agree. Class time is for learning the art, not calisthenics.

I'm of two minds on this. For serious students, I wholeheartedly agree. If I had an "advanced" class, there would be no group exercise - we'd warm up with some drills that don't have much risk. But for casual students, many of them don't have much information on fitness for the activity. But I don't want to divert too much time, and end up with too little time for the actual training.

So I spend some time building their fitness at the beginning of class. This also gives me a chance to gauge flexibility and to see if someone has an injury they've not disclosed (a lot of folks seem to think they shouldn't do anything about minor strains/pulls, and end up making them worse by trying to keep up with a drill). I've selected a few exercises that go a long way. I vary some of them, to teach additional exercises to the students, so they have more to select from for their at-home training. This is also time for me to ask questions of the students to see what they want/need to work on, and to give them some overview of what my plan is for the class.

I think this is probably more vital for grappling, as joints (especially shoulders) are much more at risk if they don't have good support muscles.

 

[bill miller]

We would start with a few loosening drills, then move on to the basics, which we would repeat, adding depth of stance, and some speed as we went along. Then we would hold certain postures, such as the riding horse stance, and bow stance. After this we split in to groups, according to skill level, and worked the forms, and for the more advanced, the two man sets. This worked pretty well.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm of two minds on this. For serious students, I wholeheartedly agree. If I had an "advanced" class, there would be no group exercise - we'd warm up with some drills that don't have much risk. But for casual students, many of them don't have much information on fitness for the activity. But I don't want to divert too much time, and end up with too little time for the actual training.

I don't disagree. You know I'm all about guidelines, not rules. We do warmup stuff. I'm just unwilling to spend a lot of time in class on anything other than the actual training. I teaching stretching and such, but I find it unlikely that anyone who is going or went to school in the US won't be familiar with basic exercises. That should be sufficient for "casual" students. If they're more serious, then in today's world, they won't have any difficulty finding lots and lots of fitness tutorials.

 

[dvcochran]

Agree. Class time is for learning the art, not calisthenics.

Agree to a degree. I do not care much for static stretching at the beginning of class but stretch at the end of every class. 1-2 times/week we have a long stretch (15 minutes) at the end of class.
Particularly for TKD it is just necessary for kicks.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Only if your self-worth is determined by the opinions of others.
I may have suggested that before...

If you insult somebody's instructor they're probably going to take it personally.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't disagree. You know I'm all about guidelines, not rules. We do warmup stuff. I'm just unwilling to spend a lot of time in class on anything other than the actual training. I teaching stretching and such, but I find it unlikely that anyone who is going or went to school in the US won't be familiar with basic exercises. That should be sufficient for "casual" students. If they're more serious, then in today's world, they won't have any difficulty finding lots and lots of fitness tutorials.

I've just had a bunch of students come in who couldn't do a proper push-up, had no idea what a mountain climber or turkish get-up were, etc. So I teach a few exercises and some variations. Part of that is teaching to students like me, who need more variety to keep a routine of training away from class. Hopefully far from the majority of students.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agree to a degree. I do not care much for static stretching at the beginning of class but stretch at the end of every class. 1-2 times/week we have a long stretch (15 minutes) at the end of class.
Particularly for TKD it is just necessary for kicks.

I think with folks who sit for work, it's necessary for all styles, to varying degrees. I try to remember to leave time for at least a few cool-down stretches, but I don't always notice the passage of time, so it gets missed.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think the idea of a McDojo would be more like, "Come on in. You can do it and it will be comfortable and safe... and fun."

But think of the alternative - "Come on in. You won't be able to do it well for many months, during which time you will be sweaty, sore, out of your comfort zone, confused, feeling uncoordinated and constantly corrected. And, oh yeah, there is a good chance you'll get a black eye, split lip, jammed finger, bruised ribs and knots on your shins, and count on getting a good kick to the nuts at least once." All this for just $95 per month? SIGN ME UP!