Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

[Yamabushii]

I agree with this in part, but you would need to better define 'hard core' schools.

A lot more sparring and more physicality, both things that are more likely to end up with people getting hurt and ending up with insurance claims, yet the latter doesn't happen as much. Mind you, I was pretty fortunate that both schools where I started two of my traditional arts had a good balance, so there are exceptions to the rule but from what I've seen, they're also the rarity.

 

[Yamabushii]

Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.

I partially agree. I think anyone that trains in any traditional martial arts school has experienced that at some point. The problem is that there are concepts which traditional martial arts occasionally teach as opposed to sparring that confuse people who don't train in anything traditional, and those people try to connect the dots with a school/instructor that's a flat out fraud to something they think looks silly just out of sheer ignorance. Yes there are schools and teachers that are complete frauds, yes they should get called out because they're endangering people's lives, but should you do it? Should you call them a McDojo? Honestly, if you don't know for sure it's better to just shut up. Otherwise, do the proper research with an open mind.

 

[Hanzou]

Are you saying this from a position of experience or as an educated guess? I see some truth in it but I also think that traditional martial arts and artists are falling behind the times in terms of practicality.

Hard to argue against that. Also the gap is widening considerably.

 

[Steve]

In the U.K, monetising Budo is a relatively new phenomenon and I think this has stifled the proliferation of McDojo (although there are some). In my art, we are not allowed to make a profit, but only cover hall-hire expenses and our insurance costs, which are pretty minimal with our national governing association (people are generally less litigious in the U.K. , but that is changing thanks to the legal models being imported from our cousins ‘across the pond’!)

Sounds very different over there. Who enforces the requirement to not turn a profit? I mean, is the government imposing that, or is it the style/organization? Curious to learn more about that, because it sounds like some styles are running for profit, so I'm wondering what the difference is.

Did this ever get explained? I'm really curious how this works in the UK. Can anyone who is familiar with how it works in the UK explain who is imposing limits on profit, and why or how some can run for profit and others cannot?

 

[MadMartigan]

Did this ever get explained? I'm really curious how this works in the UK. Can anyone who is familiar with how it works in the UK explain who is imposing limits on profit, and why or how some can run for profit and others cannot?

While a slight assumption on my part... I took his statement of "in my art we are not allowed to make a profit" to refer to his organization. I don't think it had anything to do with the laws in the UK. Just one of those styles that doesn't allow it within their own org is my guess.

 

[Steve]

While a slight assumption on my part... I took his statement of "in my art we are not allowed to make a profit" to refer to his organization. I don't think it had anything to do with the laws in the UK. Just one of those styles that doesn't allow it within their own org is my guess.

Ah. Okay. That makes sense, I guess. Thanks.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Nothing stopping it except other martial artists who want to "be nice." Most people here get mad at "dojo busting," challenging other instructors, exposing "bullshido," and the like. In fact, doing the "bullshido" thing is explicitly prohibited here.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Wow, I had no idea. It’s so uncouth.

Haters gonna hate. Let em come.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I partially agree. I think anyone that trains in any traditional martial arts school has experienced that at some point. The problem is that there are concepts which traditional martial arts occasionally teach as opposed to sparring that confuse people who don't train in anything traditional, and those people try to connect the dots with a school/instructor that's a flat out fraud to something they think looks silly just out of sheer ignorance. Yes there are schools and teachers that are complete frauds, yes they should get called out because they're endangering people's lives, but should you do it? Should you call them a McDojo? Honestly, if you don't know for sure it's better to just shut up. Otherwise, do the proper research with an open mind.

Or go on in and challenge the teacher and see what happens…

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Hard to argue against that. Also the gap is widening considerably.

And you would base your statement on the current state of mma I’m guessing?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Or go on in and challenge the teacher and see what happens…

So when people get old, and their joints go bad, and they can no longer fight as well as they did when they were young, their knowledge and their ability to pass that knowledge on goes away?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Did this ever get explained? I'm really curious how this works in the UK. Can anyone who is familiar with how it works in the UK explain who is imposing limits on profit, and why or how some can run for profit and others cannot?

I never saw an explanation, but my read was that it was an organizational thing, not a governmental restriction. Could be wrong.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So when people get old, and their joints go bad, and they can no longer fight as well as they did when they were young, their knowledge and their ability to pass that knowledge on goes away?

Not at all. Where did you get that idea? I have no doubt that Sifu Woo would take people apart even when he was 86. The fact is that one of the students will take the challenger up instantly. My point being that the easiest way to find out if the place is real is to go on in and try it out. It might be rude, mannerless, risky, etc. but the answer will be quite clear.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not at all. Where did you get that idea? I have no doubt that Sifu Woo would take people apart even when he was 86. The fact is that one of the students will take the challenger up instantly. My point being that the easiest way to find out if the place is real is to go on in and try it out. It might be rude, mannerless, risky, etc. but the answer will be quite clear.

Not necessarily. If someone came in and challenged me rudely, they'd get no satisfaction. If they asked politely, I'd consider.

 

[bill miller]

So when people get old, and their joints go bad, and they can no longer fight as well as they did when they were young, their knowledge and their ability to pass that knowledge on goes away?

Absolutely not!

 

[Hanzou]

And you would base your statement on the current state of mma I’m guessing?

MMA and Bjj.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Not necessarily. If someone came in and challenged me rudely, they'd get no satisfaction. If they asked politely, I'd consider.

I’m not actually advocating this behavior, I have said I don’t do it. That said, I’m fine with people calling ME out. I have seen it done at our gym with my teacher, I have heard two stories of it happening at Sifu Woos gym long ago as well. This type of thing was commonplace in Canton in the 1930s. It’s part of martial arts regardless the judgement of its merit.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Not necessarily. If someone came in and challenged me rudely, they'd get no satisfaction. If they asked politely, I'd consider.

Sometime you may not have an option. Have you had this happen? I must admit, It is always a bit shocking when someone wants to risk it all over this nonsense, but whatever... at some point everybody finds out that there is always somebody tougher. I tend to see it as a potential opportunity to gain a student.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I’m not actually advocating this behavior, I have said I don’t do it. That said, I’m fine with people calling ME out. I have seen it done at our gym with my teacher, I have heard two stories of it happening at Sifu Woos gym long ago as well. This type of thing was commonplace in Canton in the 1930s. It’s part of martial arts regardless the judgement of its merit.

Again, I'd have no issue with someone doing it respectfully. I've never claimed to be a badass, so someone coming in and besting me in sparring isn't a problem. I've had students who had that potential.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sometime you may not have an option. Have you had this happen? I must admit, It is always a bit shocking when someone wants to risk it all over this nonsense, but whatever... at some point everybody finds out that there is always somebody tougher. I tend to see it as a potential opportunity to gain a student.

I've never had anyone challenge me. If they challenged belligerently, I'd have a student call the police, same as I would if they walked into a retail store and did this. If they push it by attacking (the only way I don't have a choice), then it's no longer a challenge - it's an assault, and I'll treat it as such.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Again, I'd have no issue with someone doing it respectfully. I've never claimed to be a badass, so someone coming in and besting me in sparring isn't a problem. I've had students who had that potential.

I’m not talking about sparring. I’m not a tough guy either, I have known some, that’s how I know I’m not one. The times I’ve seen it, it was a fight, not a competition. Never heard of a respectful dojo buster, I don’t think that’s a thing.