Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

[Gyakuto]

Not the government, but many of the parent Japanese association to which we’re affiliated to such as the ZenKenRen (All,Japan Kendo Association). All teaching if free!

I don’t think the ‘pay more, get better’ is a rule of thumb at all. It what advertising would have you believe, so we get top price brands and exactly the same ‘own brand’ often made in the same place but sold a a lower cost. Anyway, this is becoming about capitalism of which I have little interest.

When an art becomes a commodity, it becomes a target for exploitation by those who try to monetise it for their own gain. With that comes marketing (little white lies), exaggerated claims, lower examination standards, coloured keikogi, belts and patches etc. But the main issue is the promulgating of techniques which may not have been ’forged in the fire of aggressive, fully resisting’ combat….if that’s what you’re looking for. You might not!

 

[Gyakuto]

I generally agree with what you are saying, although I have no problem with a teacher being paid for his time. I will ask though: how is it that you are not allowed to make a profit? How is that controlled, and what would stop you from going off on your own to teach what you know, at a high price?

It’s not the done thing in traditional Japanese Budo…like not tipping waiting staff in Japan restaurants. What stops you setting up on your own? I think the idea is that Budoka hold themselves to a higher moral standard and just don’t do this. It’s dishonourable to ones teacher (who hasnt done it) and it turns something honed in heat of combat, often the result of maiming and even death of humans into a means of financial gain. Hard to believe, eh?

 

[Gyakuto]

That is a hilarious video. It looks like the local tkd studio. Lol!

When I’m feeling a bit down, or my training isn’t going well, I watch this to cheer myself up I’d love to know the school of which art belongs. I suspect Royal College of (bad) Dancing!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can't imagine it is all that different from the UK to the US but if you study the differences in selling a commodity versus a service you will see the approach is/should be quite different.
You are spot in in regards to the stars, stripes and patches seen at some schools. When this 'tool' goes beyond the purpose of organization is does blur the commodity/service line. Using this method as a 'dangling carrot' is just wrong and ultimately misleading. Especially, especially in the adult model.
Setting up a system of promotion that relies on the incremental acknowledgement of proficiency is nothing new. Just look at any military organization. Or the promotion of employees in many business environments. But mainly or even explicitly (I have seen this) using the next milestone marker as the sole motivator, instead of focusing on the content, training, and effort it takes to get there is definitely when the McDojo moniker is justified. A good example is the 'binge & purge' college class mentality. A system that allows a person to slide until the last few weeks before testing then cram the needed training in just to get by the next test is a key indicator of a McDojo. This severely hurts each side of the model. However, it is not an uncommon occurrence. Part of what adds to burgeoning complexity of extending the belt system with color, stars, stripes, etc... This is also a major factor in the trend of 'subpar' 1st Dan practitioners. By in large, the whole scale has moved.

I can't agree that monetization necessarily adds to or takes away from a school earning the McDojo title. Used correctly, capitalism leads to continued improvement in any business model. The first and foremost example I can think of to support this is in expectation. When a product or service is paid for the transaction alone creates expectation. Hopefully we can agree that, by in large, the more you have to pay for a certain product the better the quality you expect to receive. I am not talking about flashy advertising that over-inflates perceived quality. I mean established, known quality. This requires a ton of time, effort, and expense from the provider. Either in the depth of the service rendered or the material it takes to create the product. Why is it wrong to expect compensation for this?
If a person is okay with training in the park or a back room, garage, or a dark dingy training good on them. That is a choice I have no problem with. AND that does not automatically mean subpar training. But this is a deep well that includes a degree of liability that I will not get into here. And the reflection (good or bad) is too often not accurately recognized.

Are you saying the UK government does not allow gyms or dojo/dojangs to operate for profit? Is this consistent for any service industry over there?
Do you have different NFP status' such as 501 or 503 like in the US? It is used as a blanket and redirect all to often here. A LOT of money is made by NFP's that gets channeled in some rather innocuous ways. You better have a really, really good tax man if your run a NFP here. Else, you are running off the books or just as a hobby.

That video is sadly hilarious.

I agree with much of your point here, except the part about expectation. We have research that solidly shows it at least sometimes works backwards: how much something is priced affects the judgment of its value, rather than just the expectation against which it is judged. This is seen in things as basic as blind wine tastings, where the same wine is presented twice - once as an inexpensive wine, and once as an expensive wine. It is nearly always judged as a better-tasting wine when thought to be expensive. There's sufficient evidence of this effect on other products and services to believe it likely comes into play sometimes with martial arts.

 

[lklawson]

Not the government, but many of the parent Japanese association to which we’re affiliated to such as the ZenKenRen (All,Japan Kendo Association). All teaching if free!

I don’t think the ‘pay more, get better’ is a rule of thumb at all. It what advertising would have you believe, so we get top price brands and exactly the same ‘own brand’ often made in the same place but sold a a lower cost. Anyway, this is becoming about capitalism of which I have little interest.

When an art becomes a commodity, it becomes a target for exploitation by those who try to monetise it for their own gain. With that comes marketing (little white lies), exaggerated claims, lower examination standards, coloured keikogi, belts and patches etc. But the main issue is the promulgating of techniques which may not have been ’forged in the fire of aggressive, fully resisting’ combat….if that’s what you’re looking for. You might not!

Teaching martial arts as a profession is a long-standing, time-honored, career path. There are examples in every culture from Chinese to Filipino, though I am most familiar with historic European and American examples such as Johannes Liechtenauer, Nicolaes Petter, and Thomas Monstery.

Teaching for money does not guarantee poor instruction and slipping standards. In fact, there are many examples where it requires highter skill and greater standards. You want to teach the rich Lord's children to fence? You'd better be darn good and have an impeccable fight reputation.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gyakuto]

Teaching martial arts as a profession is a long-standing, time-honored, career path. There are examples in every culture from Chinese to Filipino, though I am most familiar with historic European and American examples such as Johannes Liechtenauer, Nicolaes Petter, and Thomas Monstery.

Teaching for money does not guarantee poor instruction and slipping standards. In fact, there are many examples where it requires highter skill and greater standards. You want to teach the rich Lord's children to fence? You'd better be darn good and have an impeccable fight reputation.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I’m sure that’s the case, but I assume charlatans (and it is charlatans who set up McDojo) are seldom ‘weeded out’ by requests for duels as those you mention could have been.

 

[Gyakuto]

I’m surprised the biggest contributer to ill-health, obesity, rain forest clearance and animal suffering (the burger people) haven’t objected to the term ‘McDojo’.

 

[Steve]

For what it's worth, I see a lot of potential value in the idea of a club format. The club/non-profit model would definitely have a different vibe than going into a business. There would be more of a community feel. I don't know if it would affect quality one way or the other, but the culture of the school would certainly be different, and I could see it drawing a different type of student.

In America, I would guess that if someone wanted to learn European sword, a HEMA club would have a similar culture to what you describe in the UK. I know that many (though not all) judo schools are run as non-profit clubs, and they seem to do okay.

 

[Steve]

I’m sure that’s the case, but I assume charlatans (and it is charlatans who set up McDojo) are seldom ‘weeded out’ by requests for duels as those you mention could have been.

For what it's worth, I don't think charlatan and McDojo are necessarily connected. I'm pretty darn sure we could come up with several examples of martial arts charlatans who weren't running McDojos. And I am also pretty sure we could come up with some McDojo's with excellent instruction and high standards.

I’m surprised the biggest contributer to ill-health, obesity, rain forest clearance and animal suffering (the burger people) haven’t objected to the term ‘McDojo’.

Starting to sound like you just don't like Americans. Or are you referring to someone specific in this thread? Is it me? Am I the biggest contributor to ill-health, obesity, rain forest clearance and animal suffering?

As an aside, are you vegan? I have several good friends who are vegan, and it has been really interesting to hear their perspectives on things.

 

[Gyakuto]

For what it's worth, I see a lot of potential value in the idea of a club format. The club/non-profit model would definitely have a different vibe than going into a business. There would be more of a community feel. I don't know if it would affect quality one way or the other, but the culture of the school would certainly be different, and I could see it drawing a different type of student.

In America, I would guess that if someone wanted to learn European sword, a HEMA club would have a similar culture to what you describe in the UK. I know that many (though not all) judo schools are run as non-profit clubs, and they seem to do okay.

That’s really interesting. Thanks Steve.

 

[lklawson]

I’m sure that’s the case, but I assume charlatans (and it is charlatans who set up McDojo) are seldom ‘weeded out’ by requests for duels as those you mention could have been.

Nothing stopping it except other martial artists who want to "be nice." Most people here get mad at "dojo busting," challenging other instructors, exposing "bullshido," and the like. In fact, doing the "bullshido" thing is explicitly prohibited here.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gyakuto]

For what it's worth, I don't think charlatan and McDojo are necessarily connected. I'm pretty darn sure we could come up with several examples of martial arts charlatans who weren't running McDojos. And I am also pretty sure we could come up with some McDojo's with excellent instruction and high standards.


Starting to sound like you just don't like Americans. Or are you referring to someone specific in this thread? Is it me? Am I the biggest contributor to ill-health, obesity, rain forest clearance and animal suffering?

As an aside, are you vegan? I have several good friends who are vegan, and it has been really interesting to hear their perspectives on things.

Ha ha! No, my girlfriend is a French film maker who lived in the USA for many years (her son is American) and she keeps telling me how great a place it is in every way…ad nauseum! So I like contradicting her at every opportunity. She’s very positive and has the ‘can do’ US attitude and I’m European and this very negative and dismissive.

I am a life-long vegetarian who tries to take the vegan option. I’m also a retired chubby scientist and doctor so see all sides of the arguments!

 

[Gyakuto]

Nothing stopping it except other martial artists who want to "be nice." Most people here get mad at "dojo busting," challenging other instructors, "bullshido" exposing, and and the like.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I remember hearing about a U.K.-based Japanese senior swordsman who applied to the Japanese government for the legal papers to challenge someone with whom he had an argument, to a duel to-the-death! He received them and the other guy avoided him thereafter!

 

[bill miller]

Ha ha! No, my girlfriend is a French film maker who lived in the USA for many years (her son is American) and she keeps telling me how great a place it is in every way…ad nauseum! So I like contradicting her at every opportunity. She’s very positive and has the ‘can do’ US attitude and I’m European and this very negative and dismissive.

I am a life-long vegetarian who tries to take the vegan option. I’m also a retired chubby scientist and doctor so see all sides of the arguments!

Damn! now I'm hungry. I think a Big Mac would hit the spot

 

[Gyakuto]

Damn! now I'm hungry. I think a Big Mac would hit the spot

Eat…eat heartily…keep eating

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Nothing stopping it except other martial artists who want to "be nice." Most people here get mad at "dojo busting," challenging other instructors, exposing "bullshido," and the like. In fact, doing the "bullshido" thing is explicitly prohibited here.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I actually Have seen a three different attempts at dojo busting at Sifu Gales gym. It was almost comical. A Tai chi guy once. Two Korean tkd guys, then about two years later a black belt student of the two Korean tkd guys. Only the Tai chi guy walked out on his own two legs(because he realized his mistake). I really don’t have a problem with people trying it, as long as they don’t get the idea that it’s going to ”be nice”. Bullshido is just that, and it needs to be called out for what it is. Rules of the forum make sense because we are online and people can say or make up whatever they want. I don’t do it myself because I don’t care what others are doing, and I don’t want to go around town being an ***.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Eat…eat heartily…keep eating

Lol!

 

[lklawson]

I remember hearing about a U.K.-based Japanese senior swordsman who applied to the Japanese government for the legal papers to challenge someone with whom he had an argument, to a duel to-the-death! He received them and the other guy avoided him thereafter!

I haven't personally seen anything that extreme but I have seen disagreements grow into a "challenge match." I recall it happening between Judoka a couple of different times. One case, one person backed down, the other no-showed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gyakuto]

I actually Have seen a three different attempts at dojo busting at Sifu Gales gym. It was almost comical. A Tai chi guy once. Two Korean tkd guys, then about two years later a black belt student of the two Korean tkd guys. Only the Tai chi guy walked out on his own two legs(because he realized his mistake). I really don’t have a problem with people trying it, as long as they don’t get the idea that it’s going to ”be nice”. Bullshido is just that, and it needs to be called out for what it is. Rules of the forum make sense because we are online and people can say or make up whatever they want. I don’t do it myself because I don’t care what others are doing, and I don’t want to go around town being an ***.

I have never heard of this occurring in modern times. I think it must be all the hormones they’re injecting into beef cattle

 

[Oily Dragon]

I’m surprised the biggest contributer to ill-health, obesity, rain forest clearance and animal suffering (the burger people) haven’t objected to the term ‘McDojo’.

I'm sure they have. McDojo.com is owned by McDonald's I believe. IF not them, the Lizard Illuminati.

Anybody who tries to commercial use "Mc" gets super-sued.