From merriam webster, the second definition is:
Yes, I was just ascertaining to which definition Steve was ascribing.
It's been implied throughout this entire thread that unless a business is non-profit, it must engage in unethical practices and produce low quality products.
That is the case, isn’t it? Or rather, ‘more likely to….’
No. You don't drive a car from a non-profit manufacturer, do you? You don't eat out at non-profit restaurants, do you?
Is there such an alternative choice? I no longer eat in franchise restaurants as they’ve taken a steep nose dive since the lockdowns! But there are two small, excellent restaurants here that I do occasionally frequent. But their main custom seems to be via ‘Just Eat’
I suppose that’s why there are no sweatshops in south east Asia producing single-wear garments, mobile phones with hidden software that slows them down to ‘preserve battery life’ as they age, electric car manufacturers who’s products are regularly criticised for their quality and safety, who’s work places are criticised for a toxic environment, no online book retailers who track their employees every working move giving them up achievable targets and low pay etc. They get away with it because it’s either well hidden or we, the consumers, turn a blind eye because we like cheap products. They’re cheap for a reason.
If there are dojos out there that run strictly on charitable donations, I have yet to see it. Are there dojos out there where the tuition is just enough to break even, and the owner has to live on other means? I'm sure these exist, but I'm betting not enough for it to be the norm and everything else to be a "McDojo."Is there such an alternative choice? I no longer eat in franchise restaurants as they’ve taken a steep nose dive since the lockdowns! But there are two small, excellent restaurants here that I do occasionally frequent. But their main custom seems to be via ‘Just Eat’
I suppose that’s why there are no sweatshops in south east Asia producing single-wear garments, mobile phones with hidden software that slows them down to ‘preserve battery life’ as they age, electric car manufacturers who’s products are regularly criticised for their quality and safety, who’s work places are criticised for a toxic environment, no online book retailers who track their employees every working move giving them up achievable targets and low pay etc. They get away with it because it’s either well hidden or we, the consumers, turn a blind eye because we like cheap products. They’re cheap for a reason.
McDojo get away with their practises for similar reasons, the participants don’t know any better and they’re enticed to maintain the status quo with promises of very dark belts!
Based on the context of my statement, which do you think?
If the bistro has modest aspirations for commercial success, then there's a possible conflict between prioritizing craft/art and prioritizing keeping the lights on.
I agree, and never meant to suggest otherwise. My simple point here is that, regardless of how you define McDojo, it is a statement related to a business model.
Once again, this seems to be a very strange question. Which do you think I mean?
This is the model used successfully by the British Kendo Association (kendo, Iaido and Jodo), the world oldest martial arts association outside Japan! My teacher makes his living as a ‘music type setter’ transcribing music such as operas into musical notation. Others are graphic designers, run a media company, are university academics etc. Our teachers take time out of their lives to instruct us because they love their art. Hard to believe, I know, but this was generally the norm within the martial arts in the U.K. until fairly recently!
The only time I would take issue with it being for profit is if it's a chain dojos owned by people who aren't involved in the their day-to-day operations - for example, an LLC. But if one individual wants to earn a living doing what he's passionate about, what's wrong with that?
There’s nothing wrong with that if she maintains high quality teaching and doesn't exploit her students. But in an environment where there are for profit and non-profit organisations in existence, punters will ultimately vote with their wallets
That’s my goal, rich and famous cult leader. Now I need a title…Based on the context of my statement, which do you think?
If the bistro has modest aspirations for commercial success, then there's a possible conflict between prioritizing craft/art and prioritizing keeping the lights on.
But where a school has no expectations for any kind of commercial viability, there is no conflict. I mean, in the case of @Wing Woo Gar and @Flying Crane , they are saying that they don't need or even seem to want any commercial success. And so they have many other options to be as exclusive and eccentric as they choose. It's entirely their gig... and I get it. The point where I monetize a personal interest is typically the point I no longer enjoy it. Monetize something and it becomes work (for me).
But in a thread about McDojos... which is an inherently business related concept... I don't know why folks with literally no stake in the discussion are taking it so personally.
I agree, and never meant to suggest otherwise. My simple point here is that, regardless of how you define McDojo, it is a statement related to a business model.
Once again, this seems to be a very strange question. Which do you think I mean?
There have been examples in the past... whether it's Frank Dux or others. It's a shame, but the investigations section of the Bullshido.net forums was a great place to see real life examples of some pretty shifty stuff going on.
On a larger scale, you can see some examples in organizations like the oath keepers, proud boys, and other similar militia in the USA. On a small scale, when you have an authoritarian personality who is a guru or gatekeeper to something esoteric, ineffable knowledge, a power imbalance where you're the student, and he's the master, where you're doing it for pure, spiritual reasons unsullied by distateful things like competition or money... I mean, personally, there's something very honest and transparent about a consumer relationship.
Martial Arts Cults: Authoritarian Personality
www.nononsenseselfdefense.com
Agree that if money is the primary objective, you are heading down the path. But fame (or self aggrandizement or narcissism, etc) is a little different, and that leads potentially to the cult path, which in my opinion, isn't the same thing... though one could do both.
I want in on a piece of that, Wing Woo Gar. I could throw up a couple of white robes for us
I think we disagree on the nature of the service I offer. If you go to a pub or a barbershop you get to have it your way. You order a service or a product the way you choose. In my school, you get it the way I serve it or it’s “no soup for you”. Again, whether I test or not, i don’t much care for anyone telling me what I should do or how to do it. I’m not alone in the service industry, Chefs often share my opinion. Go try that out at your local tattooist, they love that. How much? How long? Will it hurt? All great ways to get thrown out of the shop with the quickness. The fact that you don’t seem to know this is a little surprising.
Very nice, you see, one of the biggest hurdles I face is that I recently found out that I am ceremonially inadequate. I imagine I will need some dogma training.I want in on a piece of that, Wing Woo Gar. I could throw up a couple of white robes for us
To be clear, not suggesting anything like that. Only that it's the analogous issue. Where the negative face of a commercial school is McDojo, and the negative face of a non-commercial school is cult... or cult like.
Also a great way for a chef's restaurant to go out of business. Unless being persnickety becomes part of your brand, like Albert Yeganeh.
Once again, we're saying the same thing. I simply told PhotonGuy that if he wouldn't tolerate that type of service at another business (it really shouldn't matter which, but somehow McDonald's gets under your skin), then he shouldn't tolerate it at a dojo.
The buyers right extend
i do it for the love of the art, so it continues. For the ones that honestly strive, and work to learn it, they become very valuable and important to me. My training brothers that I came up with are my best, most reliable friends. The relationship we had with our Sifu and Sigung was something akin to father and grandfather. I hope to make them proud by fostering the family group atmosphere. It’s a very personal thing for me, in that I dearly loved my teachers. They never treated me like I was a customer, I never thought of them as business owners. I hope I’m wrong, but that sort of thing is unusual these days. Maybe I don’t know much about business and being profitable. Maybe I don’t have any business commenting in the thread because I don’t test or rank my students. Maybe I shouldn’t have strong feelings about any of it. In any case, I don’t agree that it’s the same as buying some garbage at a drive through that will have its wrapper shucked off and be consumed without a thought about where it came from or it’s nutritional value.
