Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

[Wing Woo Gar]

We aren’t beating the same horse.

Spoiler

it’s the same horse.View attachment 29836

Lmfao!

 

[Hot Lunch]

I think you have this backwards.

Let's see...

I’m not at your service,

So people pay you for nothing? I wish my high school guidance counselor told me that this was a thing.

you come to request training.

Just like I go to McDonald's to request to request a medium Quarter Pounder meal with a Coke.

I decide the if, the when, the how. Don’t like my style or the service? Go somewhere else. My school, my rule.

Dairy Queen just discontinued the cherry dipped cone. They decided that. That was the only thing I went there for. Since I don't like their decision, I won't go there anymore unless they bring it back. Same thing.

If someone walked in demanding answers or suggested to me that I was the same as a McDonald’s cashier, I would ask them to leave and not return.

So the same thing wouldn't happen to someone walking into McDonald's demanding the McRib or the Mighty Wings?

You might not want to hear this, but your dojo operates under the same capitalistic system that McDonald's does. Mistreat the people who buy your product, and the results will be the same.

 

[Steve]

Let's see...

So people pay you for nothing? I wish my high school guidance counselor told me that this was a thing.

Just like I go to McDonald's to request to request a medium Quarter Pounder meal with a Coke.

Dairy Queen just discontinued the cherry dipped cone. They decided that. That was the only thing I went there for. Since I don't like their decision, I won't go there anymore unless they bring it back. Same thing.

So the same thing wouldn't happen to someone walking into McDonald's demanding the McRib or the Mighty Wings?

You might not want to hear this, but your dojo operates under the same capitalistic system that McDonald's does. Mistreat the people who buy your product, and the results will be the same.

I agree with this and further, I think it’s a good thing when everyone understands the transactional nature of the relationship. If it becomes more over time, great. Like regulars in a restaurant, it’s only natural.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I think you have this backwards. I’m not at your service, you come to request training. I decide the if, the when, the how. Don’t like my style or the service? Go somewhere else. My school, my rule. If someone walked in demanding answers or suggested to me that I was the same as a McDonald’s cashier, I would ask them to leave and not return.

Overall, I don't think we're in much disagreement with each other. In this free market economy that we're in, both the seller and the buyer have rights that they can exercise.

But what this comes down to is you believing that dojo owners have - or should have - the upper hand in the transaction. And I'm saying that although some students may believe that this to be the case, it's not. Money is a basic human need in modem society. Martial arts training is not.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Overall, I don't think we're in much disagreement with each other. In this free market economy that we're in, both the seller and the buyer have rights that they can exercise.

But what this comes down to is you believing that dojo owners have - or should have - the upper hand in the transaction. And I'm saying that although some students may believe that this to be the case, it's not. Money is a basic human need in modem society. Martial arts training is not.

Not an upper hand, an even hand. You don’t have to train with me, and I don’t have to change my method to accommodate you. If we get past that part, the first week is free. After that, you choose to pay me or not for the service I offer, for as long as that first part remains clear. I don’t sell belts, costumes, patches, tests, tournaments, trophy, philosophy, children’s classes, pats on the back, or unrealistic expectation. I don’t make my living teaching, that gives me the luxury of being able to be 100% about what and who I teach. Money never enters the picture in this regard. If dedicated students can’t pay, they train free. My Sifu taught this way, when I began, if I couldn’t pay dues I mucked out his horse stalls or whatever. I don’t have the transactional view you accuse me of, in any case I charge $7.50 per class. I believe that is reasonable.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I agree with this and further, I think it’s a good thing when everyone understands the transactional nature of the relationship. If it becomes more over time, great. Like regulars in a restaurant, it’s only natural.

It’s even, Steven, no one has to like what I serve or how I serve it. I really couldn’t care less because I have people who do like it that I concentrate on serving. It’s very much a niche thing. You know, like coffee roasting, I’m sure that there are people who like drinking coffee that was previously eaten by a jungle creature before being roasted. Those people will swear by that particular flavor. I never offer more than the training, nothing else. I won’t kid you I’m 100% clear about this. I get what he is saying in a capitalist sense of needing to pay the bills to have some successful dojo. What I am saying is that I am not tied to that as a model. I understand that is not the norm, but it is my experience that I am speaking from. To be honest I was indignant in my response due to the comparison of a McDonald’s cashier. That sort of desultory language is the kind of behavior that elicits a volatile response.

 

[Steve]

It’s even, Steven, no one has to like what I serve or how I serve it. I really couldn’t care less because I have people who do like it that I concentrate on serving. It’s very much a niche thing. You know, like coffee roasting, I’m sure that there are people who like drinking coffee that was previously eaten by a jungle creature before being roasted. Those people will swear by that particular flavor. I never offer more than the training, nothing else. I won’t kid you I’m 100% clear about this. I get what he is saying in a capitalist sense of needing to pay the bills to have some successful dojo. What I am saying is that I am not tied to that as a model. I understand that is not the norm, but it is my experience that I am speaking from. To be honest I was indignant in my response due to the comparison of a McDonald’s cashier. That sort of desultory language is the kind of behavior that elicits a volatile response.

Of course, if your interest isn’t making money, then your options open quite a bit.

 

[geezer]

I charge $7.50 per class. I believe that is reasonable.

Nope. That´s downright cheap. Especially for a teacher who obviously cares about the quality of his instruction.

I can definitely relate.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think you have this backwards. I’m not at your service, you come to request training. I decide the if, the when, the how. Don’t like my style or the service? Go somewhere else. My school, my rule. If someone walked in demanding answers or suggested to me that I was the same as a McDonald’s cashier, I would ask them to leave and not return.

So exactly what system do you have for rank promotion? Do you run formal tests at regular intervals? If so, do students get to take the tests at their own discretion or do you have to give them the OK before they can test? Do you just observe students and promote them when you see they're ready without any formal testing? Or is your system a combination of the above or something totally different?

 

[PhotonGuy]

I don't know why people scoff at "black belt in 3 years." If you look at the major organizations like JKA and Gojukai (that no one will question the legitimacy of), you can make black belt in 3 years without having to do bunch of extra stuff.

Some people might say 3 years is too soon to get a black belt but let's say, hypothetically speaking somebody is able to develop the skills to get a black belt in 3 seconds. Let's say somebody has their first class and within the first 3 seconds of their instruction they've already built their skill level up to that of a black belt. Should they get a black belt?

Now obviously Im greatly exaggerating and speaking hypothetically but the point is, should there be a time requirement to get a black belt? Should you be required to be a student for an x amount of time before you're eligible for the black belt even if you've developed the skills? Or should getting a black belt be entirely skill dependent without any minimum time requirement?

 

[Hot Lunch]

Some people might say 3 years is too soon to get a black belt but let's say, hypothetically speaking somebody is able to develop the skills to get a black belt in 3 seconds. Let's say somebody has their first class and within the first 3 seconds of their instruction they've already built their skill level up to that of a black belt. Should they get a black belt?

Now obviously Im greatly exaggerating and speaking hypothetically but the point is, should there be a time requirement to get a black belt? Should you be required to be a student for an x amount of time before you're eligible for the black belt even if you've developed the skills? Or should getting a black belt be entirely skill dependent without any minimum time requirement?

Now we're getting into "black belt means something" territory. Can't do that!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So exactly what system do you have for rank promotion? Do you run formal tests at regular intervals? If so, do students get to take the tests at their own discretion or do you have to give them the OK before they can test? Do you just observe students and promote them when you see they're ready without any formal testing? Or is your system a combination of the above or something totally different?

There is no rank. There is no test. They come train, I give them new exercises and corrections as they progress. The process is not on a timeline. The student sets the pace of progression based on their individual ability, level of commitment, and consistency of effort. I don’t force anything on anyone, and I don’t coddle. They either have the will and the wherewithal or they don’t. Sometimes, that isn’t so obvious, so I stay patient and give them as much as they can digest on any given day.

 

[Gyakuto]

I think you have this backwards. I’m not at your service, you come to request training. I decide the if, the when, the how. Don’t like my style or the service? Go somewhere else. My school, my rule. If someone walked in demanding answers or suggested to me that I was the same as a McDonald’s cashier, I would ask them to leave and not return.

In the U.K., we witnessed this change in attitude when young people had to start paying for their university education. Education changed from delightful privilege for which we were grateful to, ‘What are you doing for me?’ We’re still waiting for a graduate to sue a university for them not achieving a first class degree classification.

Will we see MA students suing a dojo for failing a grading or losing the a tournament?

 

[Flying Crane]

So exactly what system do you have for rank promotion? Do you run formal tests at regular intervals? If so, do students get to take the tests at their own discretion or do you have to give them the OK before they can test? Do you just observe students and promote them when you see they're ready without any formal testing? Or is your system a combination of the above or something totally different?

I can’t speak for WWG, but I offer no promotions. No belts, no titles, no colored tee-shirts, no special patches for their uniform (we don’t even have a uniform) no certificates…nothing. People keep training because they enjoy it and they apparently like me as a teacher.

Ya wanna know how I became a teacher? I was a student of one Sifu, and under his oversight I was teaching a little bit to some beginners who came into his class. Eventually my Sifu took me to meet his Sifu (my Sigung), and that man allowed me to join his small group of disciples who train in his back yard (I never did the discipleship ceremony, I am just a student) and he became my direct teacher (my sifu, no longer my Sigung). He knew I was doing a bit of teaching that carried over from the arrangement I had with my prior sifu, and he never objected to it.

Eventually I moved a couple hours away, and my attendance at his classes has become occasional. I saw a job posting for a “Professor of martial arts” at the local community college as part of the phys-Ed department. I sent my Sifu a text message with a link to the job posting and said, “hey sifu, what are your thoughts about me applying for this position?” He said, “you wanna teach? Sure, go ahead.” And that was it. I asked him to write a letter of recommendation as part of my application for the job, which he did. So I do have it in writing, but not on any certificate.

I never did get that job with the community college, but I began teaching a small group in my town and I hold classes in the local parks, with the permission of the city Parks and Recreation department. I am working on another arrangement with the next town over, to hold a class through their parks and Recreation department as well. That will begin in the autumn. When I see my sifu, he often asks how my teaching is going. He seems glad I am doing it, not many people teach our system in North America.

He never tested me, never gave me a belt or a certificate or any other token or gizmo or bauble of rank. He just said, you wanna do it, go ahead and do it.

 

[Flying Crane]

There is no rank. There is no test. They come train, I give them new exercises and corrections as they progress. The process is not on a timeline. The student sets the pace of progression based on their individual ability, level of commitment, and consistency of effort. I don’t force anything on anyone, and I don’t coddle. They either have the will and the wherewithal or they don’t. Sometimes, that isn’t so obvious, so I stay patient and give them as much as they can digest on any given day.

I have a student who is a couple years older than me (mid 50s). He started a couple years ago, long long after he had a career, family, kids, house, other interests, and responsibilities to all of these things. He often has to miss class because of these responsibilities. He often simply does not have time to train much outside of class. So progress is not particularly fast. However, he enjoys the training and I enjoy working with him and the friendship that has developed.

One day he confessed that he was wondering if he was just wasting his (and my) time because he wasn’t able to make a strong commitment to training and he knows his progress is slow. He was feeling frustrated with it and wondered if there was any sense in continuing.

I told him that as far as I was concerned, he wasn’t wasting his or my time. I enjoy working with him, I enjoy getting up early in the morning for class, I enjoy teaching him and I am perfectly willing to keep doing so, as long as he enjoys it too. What is to be gained by quitting? We aren’t on a schedule. Whatever he learns, however long it takes, that is something that he gains from sticking with it and that has value.

At the moment I have two students and so far I have never had more than two at a time. Often one or the other is unable to make it to a class so I have one at a time. So they get a private lesson. I charge each student $10 per class, and the City Park and Recreation dept. Charges me $10 for each class that I hold in the park. So if only one person shows up, all of the fees for that day get turned over to the city as an expense. I hold liability insurance, have a website, some business cards, a business license, all of which cost me money. So far I am not making a dime in profit. It’s ok, I do this because I enjoy it and it is worthwhile.

 

[Hot Lunch]

There is no rank. There is no test. They come train, I give them new exercises and corrections as they progress. The process is not on a timeline. The student sets the pace of progression based on their individual ability, level of commitment, and consistency of effort. I don’t force anything on anyone, and I don’t coddle. They either have the will and the wherewithal or they don’t. Sometimes, that isn’t so obvious, so I stay patient and give them as much as they can digest on any given day.

If there is no rank or testing, then why the strong feelings on a scenario that is impossible to happen at your kwoon anyway?

 

[Flying Crane]

If there is no rank or testing, then why the strong feelings on a scenario that is impossible to happen at your kwoon anyway?

You should go back and re-read your post #742. Ponder how your comments in that post might come across. There isn’t a mystery here.

 

[Hot Lunch]

You should go back and re-read your post #742. Ponder how your comments in that post might come across. There isn’t a mystery here.

Except he started expressing those strong feelings about things that don't apply to his kwoon at #740.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I don't know about all that, but I will say that if the instructor can't answer a straightforward question, understand that a dojo is a business at the end of the day and that you're a paying customer. When you walk into a McDonald's, you would never tolerate that type of service from the cashier, so why should you anywhere else?

Do I need to explain why someone might take umbrage with this post?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If there is no rank or testing, then why the strong feelings on a scenario that is impossible to happen at your kwoon anyway?

It’s the entitled attitude, the consumer approach, the transactional view. Ironically, the very thing you seemed to assume about me in your earlier post.
Don’t worry, I’m not mad at you.