Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

[Gyakuto]

I left the discussion as so many here seem to get offended when a novice has an opinion

go figure...getting offended on a forum

You mean a ‘MartialTalk.Com Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community’

 

[Tigerwarrior]

Mcdojo is a relative term to me, to some people it means one thing and to others something else. Some mma guys will call your dojo a mcdojo if you don't spar mma style. Some will call your place a mcdojo and it's not truly a mcdojo but it's a misunderstanding of what a true mcdojo is. Funny story: someone once told my brother he was running a mcdojo because he didn't have official credentials to teach boxing, this kid was 23 years old and had been boxing since he was 10, had more documented fights than the guy from another place that was talking trash, oh yeah my brother also had a blessing and permission to teach from a pro coach the best coach in the area, but because he didn't have a certificate he was called a mcdojo, so what we did: we challenged the accusers to a challenge match, they refused and apologized. Sometimes the first ones to call a place a mcdojo are the true mcdojo trying to hide their own mess of a mcdojo lol. I have seen mcdojos before though and have some crazy stories like I knew a guy who signed a contract black belt guaranteed in 3 years, conditions be a member and pay dues every month for 3 years. He trained for a week stopped going and continued paying his dues when the 3 years was up he demanded his black belt from his instructor the instructor denied, so he took the instructor to court, judge ordered the instructor to give him a black belt, so he only trained for a week and got his black belt. That place was a mcdojo because it was in it for the money only, offer people a belt based only on time and payment and not on ability or contribution to the art or dojo, I consider that a mcdojo.

 

[GojuTommy]

Mcdojo is a relative term to me, to some people it means one thing and to others something else. Some mma guys will call your dojo a mcdojo if you don't spar mma style. Some will call your place a mcdojo and it's not truly a mcdojo but it's a misunderstanding of what a true mcdojo is. Funny story: someone once told my brother he was running a mcdojo because he didn't have official credentials to teach boxing, this kid was 23 years old and had been boxing since he was 10, had more documented fights than the guy from another place that was talking trash, oh yeah my brother also had a blessing and permission to teach from a pro coach the best coach in the area, but because he didn't have a certificate he was called a mcdojo, so what we did: we challenged the accusers to a challenge match, they refused and apologized. Sometimes the first ones to call a place a mcdojo are the true mcdojo trying to hide their own mess of a mcdojo lol. I have seen mcdojos before though and have some crazy stories like I knew a guy who signed a contract black belt guaranteed in 3 years, conditions be a member and pay dues every month for 3 years. He trained for a week stopped going and continued paying his dues when the 3 years was up he demanded his black belt from his instructor the instructor denied, so he took the instructor to court, judge ordered the instructor to give him a black belt, so he only trained for a week and got his black belt. That place was a mcdojo because it was in it for the money only, offer people a belt based only on time and payment and not on ability or contribution to the art or dojo, I consider that a mcdojo.

Based on that story I wouldn’t necessarily say the contract makes it a mcdojo without more information.

Based on the story the instructor did not want to give the dude a blackbelt, but was forced to because of his stupid contract.
I wonder if that school changed their contracts after that.

 

[Steve]

It's a service I provide.

There are certainly attributes that are a byproduct of the activity, itself. Learning to struggle. Learning to learn through failure. Learning to keep going to success. All of those build positive traits. And a coach/instructor who is a good model of communication, humility, etc. will encourage those things without having to teach them.

I guess my point was that there are instructors who think they are actively teaching to develop specific traits, and many of them are not. A good portion of them are helping develop the traits they think they are, but likely not because of the things they think. I think it takes a special person - and specific approaches - to actively teach/develop those traits through philosophy. And I'm not sure I could point to anything that even shows that's reliably possible, at all.

Maybe you’re right.

 

[Hyoho]

I wrote a bit about this idea in a blog post a while back (link).

TLDR, martial arts absolutely can be a tool which you can use for "character development" or "self-improvement" or whatever label you want to put on it. But ...

It doesn't happen automatically.

It doesn't happen because your teacher offers instruction in some particular set of religious. philosophical, or cultural values or has you recite some sort of official ethical creed.

It happens because you put in the time and effort to figure out how your martial arts practice can apply to making you the person you want to be outside the dojo and then do the hard work of making that transformation. This can take just as much work as refining your techniques in the dojo.

Many years ago I had some warped idea that the arts taught you seishin (spiritual, soulful, mindful). But beyond a doubt with some of the terrible people I have met in budo/kobudo over the years? You need to put Budo Seishin in there yourself to set an example to others. Maybe it would be a good point even If I dare say "selling point" as the biggest difference is that they make martial arts a business: To try and include some of values set out in that charter.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe you’re right.

Well, that's never really in question, is it?

 

[PhotonGuy]

I left the discussion as so many here seem to get offended when a novice has an opinion

go figure...getting offended on a forum

The thing is martial arts people can be extremely opinionated and so there are going to be many disagreements over stuff such as what techniques work and what ones don't, how dojos should be run, what styles are best, etc. ect. So much like with politics and religion there is going to be much controversy and much sensitivity and people will get very easily and very badly offended.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I have seen mcdojos before though and have some crazy stories like I knew a guy who signed a contract black belt guaranteed in 3 years, conditions be a member and pay dues every month for 3 years. He trained for a week stopped going and continued paying his dues when the 3 years was up he demanded his black belt from his instructor the instructor denied, so he took the instructor to court, judge ordered the instructor to give him a black belt, so he only trained for a week and got his black belt.

So if this guy you knew wanted to get a black belt that way, instead of paying dues every month for three years, why didn't he just go to a martial arts store and buy a black belt for about five dollars? That would be much quicker and much less expensive.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I read what you said but there’s no objective marker there for your decision.
It’s so the students meet your standards, which inherently means a very biased judge. If you were trained at a mcdojo originally, then your judgement is tainted unless you found non-mcdojo places to train at in between.

Therefore again your entire post boils down to “not a mcdojo because I don’t think it’s a mcdojo”

You may be correct, but that’s not much of a defense when people make the accusation.

There is also the concept that if you trained under somebody who is famous for martial arts that you did not go to a mcdojo or a school that teaches garbage. For instance, if Bruce Lee was your instructor then you know you had good instruction.

 

[GojuTommy]

There is also the concept that if you trained under somebody who is famous for martial arts that you did not go to a mcdojo or a school that teaches garbage. For instance, if Bruce Lee was your instructor then you know you had good instruction.

I mean do you know you had good instruction if Bruce Lee was your teacher?

George dillman is a famous instructor, he undeniably runs a mcdojo. Famous instructor doesn’t mean it’s not a mcdojo.

 

[Gyakuto]

I mean do you know you had good instruction if Bruce Lee was your teacher?

If the MA ability of James Coburn or the other actors that clung to BL are anything to go by, he was an awful teacher!

George dillman is a famous instructor, he undeniably runs a mcdojo. Famous instructor doesn’t mean it’s not a mcdojo.

I would love to attend one of his seminars It’d be like when Sheldon Cooper attends a book signing by Brian Greene

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is also the concept that if you trained under somebody who is famous for martial arts that you did not go to a mcdojo or a school that teaches garbage. For instance, if Bruce Lee was your instructor then you know you had good instruction.

But that's not really true. Celebrity doesn't reliably predict ability as an instructor. It doesn't even reliably predict skill - there are definitely screen actors who made good money with less skill than some of the unknown martial artists I've met.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I mean do you know you had good instruction if Bruce Lee was your teacher?

Because Bruce Lee was famous for being good in the martial arts. If Michael Phelps was teaching you competitive swimming I would think it would be rather obvious that you would be getting good instruction.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Because Bruce Lee was famous for being good in the martial arts. If Michael Phelps was teaching you competitive swimming I would think it would be rather obvious that you would be getting good instruction.

Bruce Lee was an impressive athlete, and a great actor. He is famous for martial arts MOVIES. There is no fight record, as such.

 

[PhotonGuy]

But that's not really true. Celebrity doesn't reliably predict ability as an instructor. It doesn't even reliably predict skill - there are definitely screen actors who made good money with less skill than some of the unknown martial artists I've met.

But Bruce Lee was famous for being exceptional in the martial arts in real life, not just on screen.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Bruce Lee was an impressive athlete, and a great actor. He is famous for martial arts MOVIES. There is no fight record, as such.

Alright if Bruce Lee is not the best example how about this, if you were getting boxing lessons from Evander Holyfield would you believe you would be getting good instruction?

 

[Steve]

Because Bruce Lee was famous for being good in the martial arts. If Michael Phelps was teaching you competitive swimming I would think it would be rather obvious that you would be getting good instruction.

I see what you’re saying, but technical credibility is only one part of being a good instructor. It’s important, but there are other skills that are important.

And with exceptional athletes like Lee or Phelps, you can run into a funny situation where they are so exceptional, they don’t really understand why they can do what they do. I’ve seen situations where people completely misunderstood what made them successful. And if uij try to teach that to others, they could fail miserably.

The measure of a successful trainer isn’t what they have done or can do. It’s what the students can do.

This is a real dilemma for some schools and martial arts styles.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Alright if Bruce Lee is not the best example how about this, if you were getting boxing lessons from Evander Holyfield would you believe you would be getting good instruction?

Not necessarily. Like Steve said, sometimes they're too good, and don't know how to teach those that don't just "Get it". A good comparison to me is mathematics. I know some people who are geniuses at math, but would not be able to teach others. Their mind jumps 4 steps in solving a problem, so they can't go back and explain those steps, or even think someone could mess up/not understand what they consider obvious.

A martial example is the RNC. It helps to flex your muscles in a certain way, otherwise it's a lot tougher to pull off. People who just get that natural sense don't know, and have no real way to figure out, that's why someone else is messing it up.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Because Bruce Lee was famous for being good in the martial arts.

No, he wasn't. He was famous for being good in martial arts MOVIES.

If Michael Phelps was teaching you competitive swimming I would think it would be rather obvious that you would be getting good instruction.

Phelps has a documented competitive record. Not so Lee.

And of course, being good at X does not mean you will be a good teacher of X.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

But Bruce Lee was famous for being exceptional in the martial arts in real life, not just on screen.

Not according to everyone.