Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

[GojuTommy]

So then I suppose it all boils down to whether or not a person thinks a particular dojo is a good dojo to train at and the standards for whether or not a dojo is a good dojo to train at will of course vary from person to person. A politer way of saying it would be to say that a particular dojo doesn't meet your standards as a dojo that you would train at, the term mcdojo can be offensive.

I mean there are some objective standards that can be applied.
Is the dojo/gym competing and having regular success fighting? Preferably not only point fighting, and definitely a red flag if all their wins are from in house competitions only.
Is the dojo doing real resistance training?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Nope but been living with my gf for 5yrs now.
Luckily she understands that being offended doesn’t help any situation.
If something causes offense to us we examine why it causes us offense.
If it causes offense because it’s a negative thing that is accurate we either accept that it’s true or we work the make it inaccurate in the future.

If it’s not accurate to us why would waste time being offended?

Now obviously there’s the things that fall under bigotry that are a separate issue.

My point exactly. Bigotry is verbiage I find offensive regardless of intent or direction. You are lucky to have found a tough skinned woman. Mine is fairly stoic under most circumstance. I have a rather sharp tongue when agitated, and I have certainly made some mistakes in tone and manner over the years. She has a special way of looking at me that tells me she is disappointed in my conduct.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Not my concern if someone finds my verbiage offensive.
It’s literally one of the stupidest things to get offended over.

Well I don't recall you calling any of my dojos mcdojos and honestly I don't care if you do because I know that's not the case. The problem is when people are missing the point. If Im trying to make a point and people are getting off track of the point by calling my dojo a mcdojo or by deviating in some other way.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Even positive stereotypes are racist. I know quite a few asians who hate the stereotypes that they're good at math, piano, or karate; which on the surface are all positive things. People say that hispanics are hard workers-which sound positive until you realize they're normally saying it to couch their belief that hispanics are more suited for menial labor than others.

Well that's not how I intended it. I never considered a compliment to be racist, its insults that are racist.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Hey @PhotonGuy. It actually is quite racist. There is a lot of information that you may find helpful if you look up “model minority” and how that stereotype hurts all people of color. Here’s one article to get you started.

6 Charts That Dismantle The Trope Of Asian Americans As A Model Minority

For years, the myth about Asian Americans and their perceived collective success has been used as a racial wedge. Here's a look at some common misconceptions driven by the "model minority" myth.

www.npr.org

Well I happen to be half asian American myself and if somebody calls me smart, hard working, and nice, I take it as a compliment. I've always liked those stereotypes and as I said, Im speaking from the position of being half asian American and being very proud of my heritage.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You are allowed to say whatever you want, I support you in that respect. I am allowed to feel whatever I want about what you say.

Sure you do, and I think it's good that you express how you feel and to be honest about it, I can always use the feedback.

I think that the fact that you don’t get that what you expressed would be interpreted as racist, is unfortunate. It’s not my place to educate you, but think about it. You doubled down on it, saying it’s positive racism. That, is where you have an even more serious disconnect in my opinion. I doubt anything I would say will affect you in this regard.

We all have our own points of view and mine might be different than yours, as I point out in post #485, but please realize that I don't intend to be offensive.

Please do go on sir, and illuminate me on the virtues and values of various culture groups as you see it. I invite you to exercise your rights to expressing your opinions, however backward, ignorant, and distasteful I might find them.

I would if its allowed on the forum.

 

[Steve]

Well I happen to be half asian American myself and if somebody calls me smart, hard working, and nice, I take it as a compliment. I've always liked those stereotypes and as I said, Im speaking from the position of being half asian American and being very proud of my heritage.

You asked a question and I tried to give you a very clear, direct answer, along with a link to some additional information.

For what it's worth, if someone calls me smart, hardworking, and nice because they think I am those things, I would take it as a compliment, as well. If someone calls me hardworking, smart, and nice, because I'm Caucasian... well, that's not okay, and I would not take that as a compliment.

 

[Mider]

From my own experience I can tell you this much, you don't want to argue with Dirty Dog.

Huh?

 

[OnlineChunner]

If the school is an actual mcdojo, accept the fact that it is. This is not a snowflake forum, ain't it?

 

[Steve]

From my own experience I can tell you this much, you don't want to argue with Dirty Dog.

That made me laugh. Thank you.

If the school is an actual mcdojo, accept the fact that it is. This is not a snowflake forum, ain't it?

snowflake? I’ve only ever used that term in one context.

 

[Gyakuto]

I heard something new and interesting in a TV interview last night: if you display an unconscious bias and it is brought to your attention, it’s an opportunity to do something about that unconscious bias and hopefully mitigate it. If you don’t take that opportunity to address it, then that unconscious bias can evolve into a prejudice.

 

[Hyoho]

I know not all do Japanese arts on the forum but this might be good read for some. Striving and practicing for these reasons is a good objective. PAGETITLE | SITENAME

 

[Gyakuto]

I know not all do Japanese arts on the forum but this might be good read for some. Striving and practicing for these reasons is a good objective. PAGETITLE | SITENAME

This is a nice synopsis of Budo with statements I’ve seen before such as ‘build character‘ (although I’ve never heard that term defined meaningfully).

But in my direct experience, high-graded, long time practitioners of Budo display these positive characteristics no more than anyone else in the population. In fact some of the most arrogant, financially corrupt, sometimes violent, misogynistic, racist people I’ve come across have been 6th, 7th and 8th Dan! I really do think it’s a myth that Budo training produces better people anymore than boxing or pottery classes do. If you teach a person of poor character how to use a sword, you will likely get a swordsman of poor character!

If Confucianism, Zen/Shingon/Shinto/Christian values, Greek philosophy etc were taught alongside Budo, then this charter might have a chance but they never are in my varied experience.

When I’ve trained with hachidan hanshi it’s always been about the technical aspects of swordsmanship. I have never heard them speak of morals, ethics or social behaviour.

 

[Steve]

I heard something new and interesting in a TV interview last night: if you display an unconscious bias and it is brought to your attention, it’s an opportunity to do something about that unconscious bias and hopefully mitigate it. If you don’t take that opportunity to address it, then that unconscious bias can evolve into a prejudice.

If anyone is interested, this is a cool site with a lot of different quizzes that will help evaluate your implicit biases.

Take a Test

implicit.harvard.edu

 

[Gyakuto]

If anyone is interested, this is a cool site with a lot of different quizzes that will help evaluate your implicit biases.

Take a Test

implicit.harvard.edu

What if it says I’m a member of the KuKlux Klan?

 

[Rich Parsons]

I remember the term Mc-Mansion for the housing expansion and housing growth in large sub-divisions in the 90's.
At the same time, Mc Dojo was also being used, and it applied to strip malls / plazas and mull on Malls where a Training facility was located.
...
They all looked a lot a like,
Walk in some chairs for customers, either a desk up front or in the back
Matts
A place to put your shoes
A place to change clothes
Flags on the wall
Bright Florescent lights above with drop ceilings
.
It seems they all looked alike
Like many McDonalds, Some had play areas inside or outside, some had a wide open are with lots of their micro chairs and booths along the walls.
.
Somewhere in the process it also became a slur.
Like Planet Fitness is a slur for people used to old school gyms.
.
I think it is mostly used as a slur or insult, yet it is also used for successful schools by people who are jealous, and just do not like to see others succeed.
.
So it is what it is.
I know some people think a blue car or truck is ugly and or stupid to own.
While others think Black is never clean.
.
To each their own in my opinion.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If anyone is interested, this is a cool site with a lot of different quizzes that will help evaluate your implicit biases.

Take a Test

implicit.harvard.edu

Entirely tangential story, but at this point I don't think this thread has a point so i'm fine with it. If you don't feel like reading two unrelated stories on race perception, just skip this post. That said:

Back when I was in college, that site got me in trouble with some of my peers. Keep in mind I went to a school known for it's theater program (so very liberal), that was also a private school on the more expensive side, in the Northeast US (so very white).
To my knowledge, I was one of, if not the only, minority in one psych class-but I look very white, and have a white last name. My friends were mostly not in the psychology major, so none of the people in the class knew I'm mixed. I also grew up idolozing my older cousins who lived with me when I was a kid, who were black & hispanic mixed, and by chance my other main role models were all POC. I do have biases as a result, as do we all, which I'm aware of and try not effect my general behavior/attitudes. All that's just some background for what comes next.

In one of my psychology classes, we were asked to take a race (white/black) test, and share our results. Pretty much everyone in my class assumed they would come back as having no biases (despite us already learning that's not how it works), and were shocked when everyone came back with an implicit bias towards black people/against white people. Except me, which they at first made them assume I was lying. Then when they saw the results (I think we had to print them out), someone accused me of cheating the test by purposefully waiting longer on certain ones, or taking it multiple times. Caused a huge argument with like 3 of my classmates, which ended up everyone calling my racist against white people.

My guess is that they couldn't accept someone wasn't implicitly racist against black people, or at least it wasn't them. I don't think I ever explained to them my race/personal context, as it's not there business.

A similar thing happened in a different class, with many of the same people. A professor was talking about bias, and asked us which of the two people would be on our radar for stealing. One was an old white man in a hoodie, the other was a young black man with 'typical black clothing' (i forget exactly what). The point of the discussion was how systemically we are taught to discriminate against certain types of people and assume their shoplifting with no evidence, while ignoring others.

Each year at B&N, I had to complete a loss prevention program, where they went over what to watch out for, how to react, how to submit claims, where to post known shoplifters, etc. One of the big thing is who to watch out for as a shoplifter. The primary suspects are middle aged individuals as they're the most frequent shoplifters. And people wearing either backpacks/bigger-than-needed bags, or baggy clothes. And people wearing hoodies, with the hood up. So the first guy would have been on my radar, per what the 'system' said, while the other guy would not. I shared that after the entire class was discussing how horrible the racism is in this regard, but not discussing any personal experiences, or statistics. They all again accused me of lying, misunderstanding, or claiming that barnes and noble was an anomaly for some unknown reason. None suggested further research into it, including (I think) the professor who just had us move on.

It was all really bizarre, and did a bit to teach me about the ways people aren't willing to examine their own biases.

 

[Gyakuto]

That is very interesting. We all have biases but it’s import to acknowledge their presence and then actively try and prevent them influencing you when making important decisions. This is possible by trying your best to look the evidence exclusively and dispassionately. But we are human. I was once attack by a goose, I now give them a wide berth and would probably scrutinise a job application from one a little closer than usual, even though there are good and rogue geese out there.

 

[Steve]

What if it says I’m a member of the KuKlux Klan?

Entirely tangential story, but at this point I don't think this thread has a point so i'm fine with it. If you don't feel like reading two unrelated stories on race perception, just skip this post. That said:

Back when I was in college, that site got me in trouble with some of my peers. Keep in mind I went to a school known for it's theater program (so very liberal), that was also a private school on the more expensive side, in the Northeast US (so very white).
To my knowledge, I was one of, if not the only, minority in one psych class-but I look very white, and have a white last name. My friends were mostly not in the psychology major, so none of the people in the class knew I'm mixed. I also grew up idolozing my older cousins who lived with me when I was a kid, who were black & hispanic mixed, and by chance my other main role models were all POC. I do have biases as a result, as do we all, which I'm aware of and try not effect my general behavior/attitudes. All that's just some background for what comes next.

In one of my psychology classes, we were asked to take a race (white/black) test, and share our results. Pretty much everyone in my class assumed they would come back as having no biases (despite us already learning that's not how it works), and were shocked when everyone came back with an implicit bias towards black people/against white people. Except me, which they at first made them assume I was lying. Then when they saw the results (I think we had to print them out), someone accused me of cheating the test by purposefully waiting longer on certain ones, or taking it multiple times. Caused a huge argument with like 3 of my classmates, which ended up everyone calling my racist against white people.

My guess is that they couldn't accept someone wasn't implicitly racist against black people, or at least it wasn't them. I don't think I ever explained to them my race/personal context, as it's not there business.

A similar thing happened in a different class, with many of the same people. A professor was talking about bias, and asked us which of the two people would be on our radar for stealing. One was an old white man in a hoodie, the other was a young black man with 'typical black clothing' (i forget exactly what). The point of the discussion was how systemically we are taught to discriminate against certain types of people and assume their shoplifting with no evidence, while ignoring others.

Each year at B&N, I had to complete a loss prevention program, where they went over what to watch out for, how to react, how to submit claims, where to post known shoplifters, etc. One of the big thing is who to watch out for as a shoplifter. The primary suspects are middle aged individuals as they're the most frequent shoplifters. And people wearing either backpacks/bigger-than-needed bags, or baggy clothes. And people wearing hoodies, with the hood up. So the first guy would have been on my radar, per what the 'system' said, while the other guy would not. I shared that after the entire class was discussing how horrible the racism is in this regard, but not discussing any personal experiences, or statistics. They all again accused me of lying, misunderstanding, or claiming that barnes and noble was an anomaly for some unknown reason. None suggested further research into it, including (I think) the professor who just had us move on.

It was all really bizarre, and did a bit to teach me about the ways people aren't willing to examine their own biases.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that. Sometimes, in the moment, people can feel judged and defensive. But even if, at the time, they weren’t ready, I’m sure at least some of them have given the topic more thought. It takes a while to get past the initial shock of being shown a disconnect between who they are and who they think they are.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sure you do, and I think it's good that you express how you feel and to be honest about it, I can always use the feedback.

We all have our own points of view and mine might be different than yours, as I point out in post #485, but please realize that I don't intend to be offensive.

I would if its allowed on the forum.