Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

[Dirty Dog]

What if another Martial Arts school called your karate studio Mcdojo what would you do?

Why would I care?

 

[Steve]

I personally suspect that the origin of "McDojo" was rooted in a few ideas: Firstly, that McDonalds food isn't very good or nutritious. Secondly that McDonalds is popular among children. Thirdly, that McDonalds serves food quickly. So whoever initially invented the word slapped it onto schools that they perceived as catering to children, providing poor instruction and quick gratification via rank promotion. From there it accumulated additional derogatory connotations depending on the speaker.

Not the way I've ever used it, but a perfectly understandable alternative.

I'll just go back to my first comment in this thread.

If it's meant to be insulting and critical, we shouldn't be too surprised if the person to whom it's directed is insulted.

Anything that is intended to be insulting shouldn't shock folks when it's taken as an insult. Whether it is generally understood to be pejorative or not.

 

[GojuTommy]

Can a school be a "McDojo" if it's not a chain? Isn't franchising an intrinsic element? Otherwise, it's just a school with poor standards.

No franchising has nothing to do with mcdojos.

The phrase literally came around because of schools that “hand out belts like happy meal toys.”

 

[Steve]

No franchising has nothing to do with mcdojos.

The phrase literally came around because of schools that “hand out belts like happy meal toys.”

Cool. I wasn’t there when the phrase was first coined. Who are you quoting?

 

[J. Pickard]

What kind of explanations are deemed satisfactory?

it needs to be thoroughly thought out with complete examples and in-depth explanation. For example, saying "I think I am ready for my next belt because I am" is not acceptable. We have specific objective standards for each rank, in addition each student is given a detailed feedback sheet after each testing with personalized feedback. So if a student says " I believe I am ready for X rank because I have met the standard by *example 1* and *example 2*. After my last testing I was instructed to change Y and I worked on acomplishing this by *example*. I have also learned how the tenets of TKD can impact my life outside of the dojang throught *example*" This would be satisfactory. It would also be satisfactory if they gave a thorough explanation of something they have been struggling with and have overcome.

 

[GojuTommy]

Cool. I wasn’t there when the phrase was first coined. Who are you quoting?

Specifically? No one, but if you were in the online martial arts spaces in the early 00s, that was basically the catch phrase used to describe mcdojos, as that faded out, mcdojo faded in.

 

[Steve]

Specifically? No one, but if you were in the online martial arts spaces in the early 00s, that was basically the catch phrase used to describe mcdojos, as that faded out, mcdojo faded in.

Cool. Back then, I’m guessing it was as poorly defined as it is now.

I found this thread, which was a fun read, but not super helpful defining mcdojo: The whole McDojo thing!

Here’s one from 2006 that starts to get to the heart of it, though to @Tony Dismukes’ Point, there is no consensus.

McDojo?

so i've been reading for a little while and need to stick my big, fat head in a hornet's nest over this mcdojo thing. i've read the term and figure it means any or all of the following: 1. a school that uses professional sales techniques 2. a school that overcharges 3. a school run by...

www.martialtalk.com

Am I the only one who likes to read old threads?

 

[Steve]

Here’s another old definition from 2002.

How do I know the schools are McDojos?

The instructor is a self-proclaimed master and is 20-40 years old yet doesn't do any of the drills or shows them how and/or just does fancy kicks to woo the crowd. He never spars (although masters don't have to) but a McDojo "master" would say, "no, no, no, you're doing it all wrong. You're supposed to do a triple spin kick instead of a roundhouse" yet don't show you how or why.

You achieve a new rank every month. And tests costs $200. Everyone passes, no matter how unprepared they are
You don't learn how to protect yourself, you learn how to win trophies... There is an exception, that is unless you want to compete in tournaments which is fine, but self-defense is self-defense, sport is sport.

No hard conditioning...

The list goes on.

And one last thread. I’m sure I could find a lot more but it’s time to watch Jack Ryan.

The definition of a McDojo!!

For all those wondering what Mcdojo is check out this schools site. Look at their masters and black belt and look at their testing requirements! Its hilarious!!!!!!!!! WorldTaekwondo.com:erg:

www.martialtalk.com

 

[Gyakuto]

it needs to be thoroughly thought out with complete examples and in-depth explanation. For example, saying "I think I am ready for my next belt because I am" is not acceptable. We have specific objective standards for each rank, in addition each student is given a detailed feedback sheet after each testing with personalized feedback. So if a student says " I believe I am ready for X rank because I have met the standard by *example 1* and *example 2*. After my last testing I was instructed to change Y and I worked on acomplishing this by *example*. I have also learned how the tenets of TKD can impact my life outside of the dojang throught *example*" This would be satisfactory. It would also be satisfactory if they gave a thorough explanation of something they have been struggling with and have overcome.

That’s interesting. So that begs the question of the rate of failure in your testing. Do candidates fail?

 

[geezer]

Am I the only one who likes to read old threads?

Yeah.
I don't bother looking up old threads, I just wear them. badaboom!

...but still, thanks for calling attention to them. There's some great discussions archived that are definitely worth revisiting.

 

[J. Pickard]

That’s interesting. So that begs the question of the rate of failure in your testing. Do candidates fail?

Yes candidates do fail. If we are sure a student is going to fail we strongly encourage them to wait. Usually they take our advice but on the few occasions they don't and they do fail it usually gives them a better, more honest opinion of their own skill and knowledge. We have a very meticulous testing process. I use the cameras in our facility to record every testing. While the testing examiners will take notes and give feedback in real time, we spend a day reviewing the video to give very specific feedback to each individual and if they aren't sure of what we are talking about I show them the testing video and go over the details with them. Our failure rate isn't high though, maybe 2 -3 per year.

 

[GojuTommy]

Cool. Back then, I’m guessing it was as poorly defined as it is now.

I found this thread, which was a fun read, but not super helpful defining mcdojo: The whole McDojo thing!

Here’s one from 2006 that starts to get to the heart of it, though to @Tony Dismukes’ Point, there is no consensus.

McDojo?

so i've been reading for a little while and need to stick my big, fat head in a hornet's nest over this mcdojo thing. i've read the term and figure it means any or all of the following: 1. a school that uses professional sales techniques 2. a school that overcharges 3. a school run by...

www.martialtalk.com

Am I the only one who likes to read old threads?

Reading older threads can be fun.

The idea that franchising is related is silly.

If the UFC began franchising gyms to former champions, and all those gyms were producing competent fighters in the local scene, and even a few nationally, no one in their right mind would call these UFC gyms mcdojos despite being a national franchise.

 

[GojuTommy]

By and large I think a lot of confusion about mcdojo definition is a result of people who come from mcdojos being unable to accept it, so they look for other (logical) alternative descriptions, such as mcdojo, McDonald’s, McDonald’s is a franchise, therefore a mcdojo is a franchise, my school isn’t a franchise therefore my dojo isn’t a mcdojo.

Or even predatory financial practices, because that is extremely common among mcdojos, and so people think, well my school has reasonable pricing and registration practices, therefore not a mcdojo.

It simply comes down to poor quality instruction that misleads people as to what they’re learning and how useful it is, giving out belts to people who can’t fight for **** by any reasonable standard. (Point fighting is highly debated if it counts.)

For me the one thing that disqualifies a school from being a mcdojo is honesty and transparency.
If your kids class of 5-9 yr olds is advertised as a ‘martial arts themed after school program’ and terms like self defense are not used to market it, then it doesn’t matter what you teach or how fast kids get belts, because you’re not telling people their kids are learning something they’re not.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Because you didn’t answer the question.
Your entire response boils down to “it’s not a mcdojo because I don’t think it is”

Alright I will explain but for that to work you can't ignore what I say. You do seem to ignore much of what I say in my posts so for me to make my point you can't ignore what I say in this post.

When I visit a dojo I watch how the students perform, particularly the high ranking students. If I see students with black belts who perform terrible then I know its not a dojo that I will train at. An example would be this. Right now I am going to a dojo that teaches Goju Ryu as it's an art I've been wanting to learn for some time, but it is not the first Goju Ryu dojo I visited. The first dojo I visited that taught Goju Ryu was considerably closer but when I went and observed a class and saw that the black belt students were just downright terrible I knew I was not going to train there. When a dojo has black belt students that are so bad that it makes me cringe then that is what in my book is a mcdojo. So I visited the dojo that Im going to now, which even though its further away from me, the quality of instruction is much better as the high ranking students are much better and black belts are not handed out like candy. So that's where I decided I was going to learn Goju Ryu.

So that is how I determine what I consider to be a mcdojo and whether or not I will go there.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I'll admit I've been skipping around and I didn't read those specific comments. But if that was the reason people were calling the school a McDojo, they are really dumb! Having a system in place where the students can sign up to test has nothing to do with the quality of instruction.

Well some of the people who have posted responses on this very thread have made that claim. I won't mention names as those people know who they are.

I find this "observation" to be an ubsubstantiated racial generalization that could be considered offensive ...although I don't believe you intended it that way.

If you look around, I think you will find plenty of people of all ethnic groups who are sincere, dedicated and ethical instructors and, sadly, a great many more who are not!

Well certainly not all American instructors run mcdojos, the dojo Im going to right now is run by an instructor from the USA and he certainly does not run a mcdojo, its just that Asian instructors tend to not run mcdojos as they believe in hard work as part of their culture.

 

[PhotonGuy]

And you know what, you also can get a decent cup of coffee for a good price at McDonalds. A better deal than Starbuck's IMO.

But McDonalds does superheat their coffee, or at least they used to, because they would sell cheap coffee and by superheating it they disguise its bad taste. As a result you can burn yourself if you spill it on you and then sue them.

 

[PhotonGuy]

We do the same thing for our kids class (13 and under). Every 3-4 months we hold a testing and it is up to each student to complete the written test in the members section of our website and fill out a "request to test" form. in this form they have to fully explain why they believe they are ready to test in detail. If their reason is satisfactory then they are allowed to take the physical portion of the test. If they pass they get their next rank, if they fail they can try again next testing (no testing fees). Regardless of if they pass or fail, each student gets a detailed grading sheet back with scores and detailed explanations on what they do well and what they need work on. All of our testing dates are located near the main entrance on a calendar so all students know when they are happening.

This does 2 things. 1- it teaches the students to be responsible for themselves. We don't tell them when the testing is, that information is posted in plain view and they all know where to find it, it is up to them to stay on top of it and take the initiative if they want to be promoted. 2- it helps to teach kids how to take an introspective look at their training and develop an awareness of their strengths and weaknesses. They have to be honest with themselves because students do fail the testing if they are not ready, just requesting to test does not mean automatically passing.

Alright, so how about for students who are over the age of 13? You said its for your kids class for students who were 13 and younger.

At my old dojo there wasn't a written part of the test, you just had to perform the techniques, combinations, and katas, and if you were testing for a belt above yellow you had to spar. And you had to perform well enough of course, especially with the katas. Just knowing the kata was not enough and as a matter of fact when students failed about eighty percent of the time it was because their kata wasn't good enough.

 

[GojuTommy]

Alright I will explain but for that to work you can't ignore what I say. You do seem to ignore much of what I say in my posts so for me to make my point you can't ignore what I say in this post.

When I visit a dojo I watch how the students perform, particularly the high ranking students. If I see students with black belts who perform terrible then I know its not a dojo that I will train at. An example would be this. Right now I am going to a dojo that teaches Goju Ryu as it's an art I've been wanting to learn for some time, but it is not the first Goju Ryu dojo I visited. The first dojo I visited that taught Goju Ryu was considerably closer but when I went and observed a class and saw that the black belt students were just downright terrible I knew I was not going to train there. When a dojo has black belt students that are so bad that it makes me cringe then that is what in my book is a mcdojo. So I visited the dojo that Im going to now, which even though its further away from me, the quality of instruction is much better as the high ranking students are much better and black belts are not handed out like candy. So that's where I decided I was going to learn Goju Ryu.

So that is how I determine what I consider to be a mcdojo and whether or not I will go there.

I read what you said but there’s no objective marker there for your decision.
It’s so the students meet your standards, which inherently means a very biased judge. If you were trained at a mcdojo originally, then your judgement is tainted unless you found non-mcdojo places to train at in between.

Therefore again your entire post boils down to “not a mcdojo because I don’t think it’s a mcdojo”

You may be correct, but that’s not much of a defense when people make the accusation.

 

[Steve]

Reading older threads can be fun.

The idea that franchising is related is silly.

Silly? Well now you’re just trying to hurt my feelings.

If the UFC began franchising gyms to former champions, and all those gyms were producing competent fighters in the local scene, and even a few nationally, no one in their right mind would call these UFC gyms mcdojos despite being a national franchise.

While franchising isn’t the only indicator, it sure was a big part of the TKD and Karate McDojo/McDojang thing back in the early 2000s. Like a kind of legal pyramid scheme. I train you, give you a black belt and then you open your own school as an affiliate of mine. I give you credibility and a standardized curriculum, and you give me money money money.

And dude, the UFC gyms are so McDojo.

 

[Gyakuto]

Yes candidates do fail. If we are sure a student is going to fail we strongly encourage them to wait. Usually they take our advice but on the few occasions they don't and they do fail it usually gives them a better, more honest opinion of their own skill and knowledge. We have a very meticulous testing process. I use the cameras in our facility to record every testing. While the testing examiners will take notes and give feedback in real time, we spend a day reviewing the video to give very specific feedback to each individual and if they aren't sure of what we are talking about I show them the testing video and go over the details with them. Our failure rate isn't high though, maybe 2 -3 per year.

That sounds very thorough, indeed.