BS and the internal arts.

[Kung Fu Wang]

if I was to late to prevent the force for generating for what ever reason then I might have to borrow force but I would not yield so much to redirect, I would be moving off that center line of attack and going in at angles or behind.

Agree with you 100% there.

I just came back from the 2016 Houston Kung Fu tournament last night. In the morning, I helped judging form. In the afternoon, I helped judging Taiji push hand, There were only 2 kind of Taiji PH there. The

1. fix step - if you lift up one foot, you lose.
2. forward backward steps only - if you move 1 foot side way, you lose.

Both rule set won't allow to "use your stealing step footwork to move yourself to be out of your opponent's attacking path and lead him into the emptiness at the same time". In Chinese wrestling, you want to let your opponent to occupy your space. You want to occupy your opponent's original space. In order to do so, the footwork is a must. This kind of Taiji PH rule just prevent your training to develop the proper footwork.

The Bagua system has plenty footwork, The XingYi system is also call 行拳 (walking fist) that emphasis on "even if you don't find opportunity to attack. You keep moving. When you move, soon or later, you will find opportunity to attack". IMO, The Taiji "yield" principle is contradict to the general MA "move yourself out of the way" principle.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You need both. Ideally, we'd like to shut down an opponent before he can get a solid attack going. Realistically, that's not always going to be possible.

Agree that we will need both. But if you have time to train

1. yield a chest push,
2. yield a neck/head push (dodge),

I prefer to spend my training time in 2. The reason is simple. Your opponent may only punch on your head or push on your neck. He may never push on your chest. In other words, the ability to be able to deal with a "chest push" will have very little combat value.

There are so many MA skills that can be developed. But our life time is too short. We just can't have time to develop everything.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What this thread is about is BS. It is about examing the internal arts fairly and criticism and critique for those who want to train it as a means to protect yourself in a real encounter.

Someone made the following statement in another forum. I think he asked a "honest question" that deserve a "honest answer".
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How do you guys in taiji chuan safely enter into close range on an opponent whose strategy is to maintain punching distance using his footwork as defense while throwing uncommitted probing jabs mixed with faints as set up to lure you into initiating a counter attack so that he can unload a a bomb with his rear hand?

 

[mograph]

How do you guys in taiji chuan safely enter into close range on an opponent whose strategy is to maintain punching distance using his footwork as defense while throwing uncommitted probing jabs mixed with faints as set up to lure you into initiating a counter attack so that he can unload a a bomb with his rear hand?

I could be wrong, but ... if he is jabbing with one hand while holding another back, it's clear that he intends to unload a bomb with that back hand (duh). So, entering the range of the back hand would not be a percentage move.

We would probably keep slapping the front hand until the opponent was pissed-off enough to make a mistake and commit to an action that we can deal with. Unlike ring fighters, taiji guys are under no pressure to mix it up or score points, so we can afford to wait until the opponent makes a mistake.

Anybody else?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I could be wrong, but ... if he is jabbing with one hand while holding another back, it's clear that he intends to unload a bomb with that back hand (duh). So, entering the range of the back hand would not be a percentage move.

We would probably keep slapping the front hand until the opponent was pissed-off enough to make a mistake and commit to an action that we can deal with. Unlike ring fighters, taiji guys are under no pressure to mix it up or score points, so we can afford to wait until the opponent makes a mistake.

Anybody else?

I think I said somewhere, applying taiji properly takes patience

 

[oaktree]

Someone made the following statement in another forum. I think he asked a "honest question" that deserve a "honest answer".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you guys in taiji chuan safely enter into close range on an opponent whose strategy is to maintain punching distance using his footwork as defense while throwing uncommitted probing jabs mixed with faints as set up to lure you into initiating a counter attack so that he can unload a a bomb with his rear hand?

Fake a punch to the front and shoot in to the legs with a double leg take down. I know it's not a Taijiquan answer but it's more grounded in reality with a higher chance of success.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Fake a punch to the front and shoot in to the legs with a double leg take down. I know it's not a Taijiquan answer but it's more grounded in reality with a higher chance of success.

If my opponent uses his left jab, I will move toward his left side (my right side). This way, since his right arm is jammed by his own left arm, he won't have chance to use his right cross. In order to do so, I have to keep moving in circle around my opponent. I also don't think this "moving around" is a Taiji answer. Even this solution, to me, it's still too "conservative". I'm waiting something to happen and I'm not "preventing" something from happening.

 

[oaktree]

If my opponent uses his left jab, I will move toward his left side (my right side). This way, since his right arm is jammed by his own left arm, he won't have chance to use his right cross. In order to do so, I have to keep moving in circle around my opponent.

I also don't think this "moving around" is a Taiji answer.

My teacher when doing any thing be it push hands or applications in any style Baguazhang, Xingyiquan, Taijiquan he would a lot of times go to control the head and neck over most types of control and applications. By the way David Lin is about 45 minutes from me I've interested in practicing with him.

 

[mograph]

If my opponent uses his left jab, I will move toward his left side (my right side). This way, since his right arm is jammed by his own left arm, he won't have chance to use his right cross. In order to do so, I have to keep moving in circle around my opponent.

If the jabs are uncommitted, he's probably able to retract them in time to counter your move. Your jamming move would only work with a committed jab, right?

That's what I meant earlier: we have to wait for him to commit and give us something to work with.

I also don't think this "moving around" is a Taiji answer.

KFW, did you really think that taijiquan guys never move their feet or move around to a person's side?

Watch the guy on the left.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If the jabs are uncommitted, he's probably able to retract them in time to counter your move. Your jamming move would only work with a committed jab, right?

That's what I meant earlier: we have to wait for him to commit and give us something to work with.
KFW, did you really think that taijiquan guys never move their feet or move around to a person's side?

Watch the guy on the left.

I missed that taiji guys don't move bit.

Heck we train 3 step and 4 corner stepping with various types of push hands to train movement. We also do following drills. Sheesh, what does he think we just stand there, that our feet are nailed to the floor...... we move when necessary and quite well too.

 

[mograph]

I missed that taiji guys don't move bit.

Heck we train 3 step and 4 corner stepping with various types of push hands to train movement. We also do following drills. Sheesh, what does he think we just stand there, that our feet are nailed to the floor...... we move when necessary and quite well too.

Some may think that because we wait to be given something to work with, that we do all our work while standing in one spot.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some may think that because we wait to be given something to work with, that we do all our work while standing in one spot.

Here is the difference - wait vs. initiate vs. prevent.

You can

1. wait something to happen.
2. try to make something to happen.
3. try to prevent something from happening.

IMO, 3 > 2 > 1

How do you guys in taiji chuan safely enter into close range on an opponent whose strategy is to maintain punching distance using his footwork as defense while throwing uncommitted probing jabs mixed with faints as set up to lure you into initiating a counter attack so that he can unload a a bomb with his rear hand?

By using "破式 (prevent your opponent's force from generating)", I will

- sweep his leading foot ankle,
- kick/step on his leading leg knee joint,
- low roundhouse kick his leading leg,

and don't give him any chance to put weight on his leading leg. If my opponent can't put weight on his leading leg, he can't punch me. That's the best solution.

Why do you even allow your opponent to have any chance to punch you? IMO, that's much more "aggressive" solution.

Here is an example to use "foot sweep" on your opponent whenever he throw a jab at you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

control the head and neck over most types of control and applications.

According to the human body structure, if you can bend your opponent's

- spine, or
- knee joint

"side way", you have taken all his defense and counter away. In order to bend your opponent's spine, you start to bend his neck first. His bending neck will then bend his spine.

 

[mograph]

By using "破式 (prevent your opponent's force from generating)", I will

- sweep his leading foot ankle,
- kick/step on his leading leg knee joint,
- low roundhouse kick his leading leg,

KFW, taijiquan assumes that the opponent can respond effectively to our attacks.
Your attacks assume he won't.

By the way, in your video, black shirt is fighting very badly. His weight is back, and his front leg is out ahead of his punch, inviting you to sweep it. In other words, the part of his body closest to you is not a weapon, but a target. Bad.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

KFW, taijiquan assumes that the opponent can respond effectively to our attacks. Your attacks assume he won't.

When I try to sweep my opponent, I don't care whether I can sweep him down or not. My opponent can

- bend his leg at his knee and let my sweeping leg to pass under his leg.
- turn his shin bone toward me to resist my sweep.

As long as he has to respond to my foot sweep, I have already interrupted his attack - jab and cross combo.
After my sweep, as long as I can jam my opponent's leading arm, I'll have a safe entry.

By the way, in your video, black shirt is fighting very badly. His weight is back, and his front leg is out ahead of his punch, inviting you to sweep it. In other words, the part of his body closest to you is not a weapon, but a target. Bad.

It was training. It was not fighting. If he put too much weight on his leading leg, he would be swept down. In order to continue for training, he only wanted to put partial weight on his leading leg. that made his jab not be able to reach far and not effective.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Here is the difference - wait vs. initiate vs. prevent.

You can

1. wait something to happen.
2. try to make something to happen.
3. try to prevent something from happening.

IMO, 3 > 2 > 1

Well mathematically speaking 3 > 2 > 1. But in the things you posted, I am glad you said "IMO", because that is all it is an opinion.

So I'm in a Chinese take out place, a guy is being a jerk to everyone and yelling about foreigners in his country. He turns and sees me, and gets in my face.... so if I do 3 and pop him, or take him down I get arrested for assault. If I go for 2, then again I get arrested for assault. If I go for 1.... he leaves, no one gets hurt..... in that case 1 > 2 > 3 IMO.

And for the record in the flavor of Yang taiji that I train, that comes form Tung Ying Chieh...we also work with #2. And there are multiple ways to do #3 that do not include sweeping someones feet out from under them..... and many of those fall under De-escalation.

 

[oaktree]

so if I do 3 and pop him, or take him down I get arrested for assault. If I go for 2, then again I get arrested for assault. If I go for 1.... he leaves, no one gets hurt..... in that case 1 > 2 > 3 IMO.

When Someone gets in my face the first thing I do put my hands up and say I don't want to fight which shows witness that I was not the one starting anything the second thing I do is move either back or to the side as a way to leave and say excuse me sir I am leaving. This gives him and witness that you have no desire to fight and are trying to leave the area.
if he follows me then I either take him down or hit him if he gets close to me again. You can use reasonable force on someone if you are being threaten and the person is blocking your way to escape. Resonable could be easily this

The person intiated the fight by going to you, you clearly said you do not want to fight and tried to walk away he followed meaning he is trying to fight you. I would not use a closed fist or a hit to the face. But a control technique is reasonable.
Some things on the law however areas are based on location
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/self-defense-overview.html
The definition of false imprisonment is the unlawful restraint of someone that affects the person’s freedom of movement. Usually this involves confining a person within fixed boundries like an office or room. Both the threat of being physically confined and actually being physically confined can be considered false imprisonment if the customer is not free to leave.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I could be wrong, but ... if he is jabbing with one hand while holding another back, it's clear that he intends to unload a bomb with that back hand (duh). So, entering the range of the back hand would not be a percentage move.

We would probably keep slapping the front hand until the opponent was pissed-off enough to make a mistake and commit to an action that we can deal with. Unlike ring fighters, taiji guys are under no pressure to mix it up or score points, so we can afford to wait until the opponent makes a mistake.

Anybody else?

For me, I'm more than happy to attack the attackers incoming punch. I don't need to close the distance in order to damage the attacker. Banged up arms work just as good as a banged up face. Most people don't condition their forearms so my impacts will feel like someone is striking their arm with a steel bar. I see people work their butts off to get within range to attack the head or body which is ironic since the attacker is more than willing to give his arm.

 

[mograph]

For me, I'm more than happy to attack the attackers incoming punch. ... I see people work their butts off to get within range to attack the head or body which is ironic since the attacker is more than willing to give his arm.

Very true. A fist is a body part, and it feels pain.

... and from the taijiquan perspective, an offered arm can not only be banged up, it can be grabbed, held, maneuvered, followed, and so on.

(As for the original question, my answer was based on the assumption that the tentative jabs would not allow much contact deeper than the opponent's fist. But yes, if we can get to their forearm, so much the better.)

 

[JowGaWolf]

If the jabs are uncommitted, he's probably able to retract them in time to counter your move. Your jamming move would only work with a committed jab, right?

I practice to deal with fake jabs. The training is to recognize a jab before it's thrown and to follow through with the jam and attack even if the jab is uncommitted. The reason why the committed jam works against a fake jab is because a fake jab is both committed and uncommitted.

Fake jabs are committed in the initial motion of a jab, but are uncommitted to hitting me. I will be ok so long as I jam that initial movement of the jab. If a person fakes a jab with me they are most likely to have that arm pinned to their chest and my free hand punching them in the face right about the same time. Even if the person drops for the shoot, I will still be able to handle it because the hand that is pinning the arm creates a bridge which allows me to sense the intent/motion of the drop.

I love committed attacks for the simple reason that people are more focus on the impact than pulling their hand back quickly. This usually causes over extension when the attack doesn't land on something solid. It's like going to sit in a chair, only to have someone to pull the chair away from you.