Bruises, Indexes, and Halting Grapplers

[Thesemindz]

Ok Doc, I'm one of those guys who reads your posts but rarely comments on them. So here goes.

When I first came across your website as a brown belt, I found some of your comments to be challenging to what I understood. Not what I had been taught, but what I understood of what I had been taught. As I've continued to train I've realized that there is a great variance in the quality of instruction that you will recieve from school to school. I have learned that I am at a very good Kenpo school and that we make very good martial artists. I have also realized what you mean by motion kenpo, and I realize that it is what we practice. We do practice ALOT of joint and body manipulation, nerve striking, and body alignment, both offensively and defensively. The key point is that it's still all based on MOTION. It works, and not only in house, we train with grapplers, aikidoists, stick fighters, capoieristas, judoka, kickboxers, and many other martial artists of assorted influence, and our stuff is quality. I have no concerns there. You have opened my eyes to another type of kenpo though. I understand that it isn't neccessarily better or worse than what I'm doing, it's just another type, system, level of training. I've tried several of your tests, and I've ALWAYS found them to be on the level, at least as far as I can tell with my limited understanding, seeing as how my only exposure to you is via the internet. One of my favorite tests involved moving to an outward elbow position by hitting your opposite shoulder with the fist and then executing the elbow, (short description), and it worked. I felt a NOTICABLE difference in structure. Same with several other tests. We have trained in this type of thing before, and I was told that it was taught to our master by Mr. Parker, but I have a feeling that you have a much deeper knowledge, as we were only given a few small examples to play with. I would very much like to meet you some day and learn more about what you do. I have come to see your statements as inviting, not challenging, and I am intrigued by your particular brand of Kenpo. Seems to me, you're on the level.


-Rob

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Doc:

I miss it, too, I'll tell ya. Had a chance to use it the other night; popped back two guys who were busy brawling their way towards our table. Braced index (no PAM...seated). Braced the hands, punched into the oncoming duo, and watched them bounce off to the next table to continue their melee.

We lost a Doc here at the office, and are short-handed. I'm having to carry the load, work the hours, and get the FNG (replacement) guy hired and trained up. 6:30 AM to about 9:30 PM M-F, and 8:00 to 6:00 Sat. My adrenals are running on ma-huang and caffiene. The crash is gonna hurt.

Hopefully will see you soon enough to catch up.

 

[Simon Curran]

I have come to see your statements as inviting, not challenging, and I am intrigued by your particular brand of Kenpo. Seems to me, you're on the level.


-Rob

Ditto here.

 

[Doc]

If I've helped one person to better themselves and expand on what they do and understand - then I've kept my promise. Thank you gentleman.

PS - For the record, I don't have a brand of Kenpo. I just do what I was taught which is just another flavor in the Ed Parker Cookbook.

 

[Simon Curran]

Thank you, sir, for offering an alternate perspective and standing by it.:asian:

 

[Doc]

Thank you, sir, for offering an alternate perspective and standing by it.:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

I just do another flavor in the Ed Parker Cookbook.

Hee hee...... yeah..... but I own all the desert recipes.

:lol: :boing2: :lol: :boing2: :lol: :boing2: :lol: :boing2:

 

[Doc]

Hee hee...... yeah..... but I own all the desert recipes.

:lol: :boing2: :lol: :boing2: :lol: :boing2: :lol: :boing2:

I've known this for quite some time now, but at least you're willing to share.

 

[Gray Phoenix]

Indexing? Stopping a Grappler? Being a student of Jujitsu, I'm always looking to improve my art so this thread was a must read for me. Shooting for the legs would not be my first choice in attacks, but I have seen some very poor BJJ students walk into our class and try it. For those who are unfamiliar with Jujitsu (nonBJJ), we'll go to ground if we have to, but in my school, we would rather have our opponent kiss concrete instead of ourselves.



So after having read this thread this morning, ironically, it came up this evening in class, so I had to ask my Professor about indexing, how does it work, and most importantly..why? I also mentioned to him that I saw this thread and tried in my newbieesque terms to explain what was being discussed, and by whom. I know of Docs reputation but having somebody bounce off of me, was hard to believe.

So anyway, the Professor immediately said Doc was right and proceeded to demonstrate. WAY COOL.:ultracool I don’t want to sound corny, but I had a light bulb moment. This will be factored into just about everything I can work it into. I have also realized I need to watch my professors footwork much more closely. He's been doing it right in front of me and to me for quite some time and I never put 2 and 2 together. I found this evenings lessons very useful, in that my techniques will improve and my ego was humbled. I have many decades of learning ahead of me.

So thanks for sparking a question Doc, and Professor Bellman says "Hi".

 

[Doc]

Indexing? Stopping a Grappler? Being a student of Jujitsu, I'm always looking to improve my art so this thread was a must read for me. Shooting for the legs would not be my first choice in attacks, but I have seen some very poor BJJ students walk into our class and try it. For those who are unfamiliar with Jujitsu (nonBJJ), we'll go to ground if we have to, but in my school, we would rather have our opponent kiss concrete instead of ourselves.

As it should be.

So after having read this thread this morning, ironically, it came up this evening in class, so I had to ask my Professor about indexing, how does it work, and most importantly..why? I also mentioned to him that I saw this thread and tried in my newbieesque terms to explain what was being discussed, and by whom. I know of Docs reputation but having somebody bounce off of me, was hard to believe.

Yes it is, because so few have an understanding of anatomical structure.

So anyway, the Professor immediately said Doc was right and proceeded to demonstrate. WAY COOL.:ultracool I don’t want to sound corny, but I had a light bulb moment. This will be factored into just about everything I can work it into. I have also realized I need to watch my professors footwork much more closely. He's been doing it right in front of me and to me for quite some time and I never put 2 and 2 together. I found this evenings lessons very useful, in that my techniques will improve and my ego was humbled. I have many decades of learning ahead of me.

Don't we all.

So thanks for sparking a question Doc, and Professor Bellman says "Hi".

Thank you Mr. Freeman. You study "real" jiu-jitsu, not that other kind. You have to watch Prof. Bellman closely though. He's pretty sneaky.

 

[Doc]

Doc:

I miss it, too, I'll tell ya. Had a chance to use it the other night; popped back two guys who were busy brawling their way towards our table. Braced index (no PAM...seated). Braced the hands, punched into the oncoming duo, and watched them bounce off to the next table to continue their melee.

We lost a Doc here at the office, and are short-handed. I'm having to carry the load, work the hours, and get the FNG (replacement) guy hired and trained up. 6:30 AM to about 9:30 PM M-F, and 8:00 to 6:00 Sat. My adrenals are running on ma-huang and caffiene. The crash is gonna hurt.

Hopefully will see you soon enough to catch up.

Oh, I guess I didn't tell you how to PAM when you're seated. See you Saturday????

 

[Doc]

Ok Doc, I'm one of those guys who reads your posts but rarely comments on them. So here goes.

When I first came across your website as a brown belt, I found some of your comments to be challenging to what I understood. Not what I had been taught, but what I understood of what I had been taught. As I've continued to train I've realized that there is a great variance in the quality of instruction that you will recieve from school to school. I have learned that I am at a very good Kenpo school and that we make very good martial artists. I have also realized what you mean by motion kenpo, and I realize that it is what we practice. We do practice ALOT of joint and body manipulation, nerve striking, and body alignment, both offensively and defensively. The key point is that it's still all based on MOTION. It works, and not only in house, we train with grapplers, aikidoists, stick fighters, capoieristas, judoka, kickboxers, and many other martial artists of assorted influence, and our stuff is quality. I have no concerns there. You have opened my eyes to another type of kenpo though. I understand that it isn't neccessarily better or worse than what I'm doing, it's just another type, system, level of training. I've tried several of your tests, and I've ALWAYS found them to be on the level, at least as far as I can tell with my limited understanding, seeing as how my only exposure to you is via the internet. One of my favorite tests involved moving to an outward elbow position by hitting your opposite shoulder with the fist and then executing the elbow, (short description), and it worked. I felt a NOTICABLE difference in structure. Same with several other tests. We have trained in this type of thing before, and I was told that it was taught to our master by Mr. Parker, but I have a feeling that you have a much deeper knowledge, as we were only given a few small examples to play with. I would very much like to meet you some day and learn more about what you do. I have come to see your statements as inviting, not challenging, and I am intrigued by your particular brand of Kenpo. Seems to me, you're on the level. Ok Doc, I'm one of those guys who reads your posts but rarely comments on them. So here goes.

I am always interested in the observations of “third parties.” They tend to be a bit more objective.

When I first came across your website as a brown belt, I found some of your comments to be challenging to what I understood. Not what I had been taught, but what I understood of what I had been taught.

That is an interesting way you express that, and along the lines I have suggested as well.

As I've continued to train I've realized that there is a great variance in the quality of instruction that you will receive from school to school. I have learned that I am at a very good Kenpo school and that we make very good martial artists. I have also realized what you mean by motion kenpo, and I realize that it is what we practice. We do practice ALOT of joint and body manipulation, nerve striking, and body alignment, both offensively and defensively. The key point is that it's still all based on MOTION.

I appreciate that you don’t feel that the recognition of your Kenpo as taught to you being based on “motion” is somehow “bad.”

It works, and not only in house, we train with grapplers, aikidoists, stick fighters, capoieristas, judoka, kickboxers, and many other martial artists of assorted influence, and our stuff is quality. I have no concerns there.

I have always said the quality of what you are taught is based on the instructor and not generational lineage. Sounds like you are “testing” the water to insure the efficacy of the material, and that can only be a good thing. I commend your teacher(s) for being open minded in his/their approach.

You have opened my eyes to another type of kenpo though. I understand that it isn't neccessarily better or worse than what I'm doing, it's just another type, system, level of training.

Ah, you do read my writing.

I've tried several of your tests, and I've ALWAYS found them to be on the level, at least as far as I can tell with my limited understanding, seeing as how my only exposure to you is via the internet. One of my favorite tests involved moving to an outward elbow position by hitting your opposite shoulder with the fist and then executing the elbow, (short description), and it worked. I felt a NOTICABLE difference in structure. Same with several other tests. We have trained in this type of thing before, and I was told that it was taught to our master by Mr. Parker, but I have a feeling that you have a much deeper knowledge, as we were only given a few small examples to play with.

Yes sir, there is a multitude of information at other levels that is available. Mr. Parker often handed out “tidbits” of knowledge, but few listened, actually understood, or even stayed around. Even fewer followed up in-depth. Not all of it was intentional, and some was by design. Still, knowledge is knowledge, and pride and ego aside if you don’t have it as a teacher, you have an obligation to get it too improve your students if not yourself.

I would very much like to meet you some day and learn more about what you do. I have come to see your statements as inviting, not challenging, and I am intrigued by your particular brand of Kenpo. Seems to me, you're on the level.

I as well sir. I always love to engage open-minded students of the arts regardless of style or level. I always find the exchanges stimulating and informative for me and enjoy the company. A gentle reminder that although it appears I may be the keeper of this particular approach to Ed Parker's Kenpo, I in no way claim it as “mine” alone. It is only an extension of what and how I was taught by my teacher and others may be doing exactly the same thing. I do not have "secrets," I do have knowledge of some things.

You are secure in what you are being taught and that allows you to be objective because you are not threatened nor challenged by statements that point to things outside the paradigm of your understanding. As a “mad” Kenpo Scientist, I always thought that was what acquiring knowledge required. Mr. Parker always said all of us are ignorant about most things, and well informed about a few. The problem comes when we think we know it all about something and begin to actually believe it.

I’ve met some great and brilliant people this way and long lasting relationships have resulted. Most recently Dr. Crouch who came to me last year with a healthy dose of skepticism, but whose thirst for knowledge is stronger than his decades of martial arts and formal academic education. A guy who can rattle off muscle groups that I've long forgot or never knew, and is flat brilliant. A guy who hasn’t wore a white belt in more than a quarter of a century. Yet, he put one on with a big grin on his face. People like Dr. Crouch, as well as persons like yourself, make it all worthwhile for me personally.

Thank you very much for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences from your school with myself, and others like yourself who “read.”

“One does not become great until they realize what they don’t know is greater than what they do.” – Ed Parker

(Not a “Zen Book” quote, but a personal one)


Respectfully,

Ron "Doc" Chapél

 

[Michael Billings]

As promised, I am getting back to you on the braced supportive structure created by indexing.

I have a fairly skilled BJJ submission guy in the school who I worked with a couple of nights this week, he is increadibly fast, not heavier than me however. He did not think it would work, but in my application of it, I was able to ward off his attacks moderatly well and knew it would work equally well against a heavier grappler. I used the vertical application whenever he attempted to shoot at my legs, and pivoted up the circle with my forarm (ulna side) between his neck and shoulder. Sweet! It really dropped him when I went for the pressure points in the neck, or rolled to the ones at the base of the occipital.

I know it could be overcome eventually, especially in the context of training where they are expecting this, but that is not the scenario I train for. But it is a nice initial response to the moderatly trained grappler in some contexts. The guy who shoots low for the leg only, and is on his knees or belly already, is a different scenario, but if you have an similar mass, you could sprawl back with this and ride him down if you understand how.

Interesting to say the least. Thanks and Kudos for the work typing in the explanation.

Left over Right
-Michael

 

[Doc]

As promised, I am getting back to you on the braced supportive structure created by indexing.

I have a fairly skilled BJJ submission guy in the school who I worked with a couple of nights this week, he is increadibly fast, not heavier than me however. He did not think it would work, but in my application of it, I was able to ward off his attacks moderatly well and knew it would work equally well against a heavier grappler. I used the vertical application whenever he attempted to shoot at my legs, and pivoted up the circle with my forarm (ulna side) between his neck and shoulder. Sweet! It really dropped him when I went for the pressure points in the neck, or rolled to the ones at the base of the occipital.

I know it could be overcome eventually, especially in the context of training where they are expecting this, but that is not the scenario I train for. But it is a nice initial response to the moderatly trained grappler in some contexts. The guy who shoots low for the leg only, and is on his knees or belly already, is a different scenario, but if you have an similar mass, you could sprawl back with this and ride him down if you understand how.

Interesting to say the least. Thanks and Kudos for the work typing in the explanation.

Left over Right
-Michael

And when the Bugg stops messing around and when we actually get to spend some time together Mr. Billings, I can address other issues as well. The mere fact you could pick up the basics from a written description is awesome and a testament to you. With hands on training it can be really funky and my guys use it to survive everyday on the street at work. The "Braced Index" has become a signature posture for my teaching lineage. Like I always say, "There's nothing wrong with the Kenpo only with how some choose to apply it."

 

[jonah2]

Sirs,



I usually don’t except anything until proven first hand to me. I can, however, accept some things without proof as being possible within the realm of my technical knowledge base. This being the case with the majority of the discussions above.

I have tried the examples put forward in the post above and yes, I agree, some fascinating stuff – I accepted from the descriptions that the principals were understandable, in my mind, before proving them through implementation to be possible. Extremely well written descriptions by the way, very hard to convey in written form.



Now, that said – I have a problem in my mind with the explanation of increased stability through the last paragraph of the following:



Kembudo-kia kempoka wrote:

“….Standing in your right neutral bow, throw an upward thrusting elbow with the lead hand, ending with the fist somewhere next to the skull, around the ear-ish. Have your training partner pull down on your elbow. It will cave with little encouragement (note: this is the vector of resistance against the line of drive of the strike, usually provided by their chin). Do it again, but this time, grab the back of your head at the top of the strike. Have your partner pull down on it. It will be harder, because now you’ve added the support of your spine and back muscles to it: They have to pull your whole body forward. And if you did the corrective stamp when you stepped, that will be even harder still. Now for the kewl part. Do it again. But this time, just reach out and touch the side of your head with one finger. Have your friend test it. Even though your hand is not wrapped around your skull, he will have as-hard a time moving it. Why? Because the body is electric, and being so, is empowered by closing or chaining circuits. A hand floating in the air isn’t electrically AS connected to the body as one that has some closure, created by simply touching yourself. By merely closing the circuit, you add about another 25-75% of strength/stability to the limb in that position….”



I’m not saying the experiment didn’t work because it seemed to do so. What I am saying is, I have a hard time understanding how the completion of a non-specific electrical circuit by touching a finger to the head will increase the stability of the arm / strike. Something I can’t grasp



I would have a better time understanding if the theory was that the minor alteration of extending the finger to the head makes minor changes to the muscles within the hand, arm, shoulder thus increasing or bettering the Neuro-Physiologic Congruency / Anatomic alignment etc.



May be I am missing something but some further discussion may help.



Huge respect to both “Kembudo-kia kempoka” and “Doc”, and await some healthy ‘Jonah’s mind changing’ discussion



Jonah

 

[howardr]

Jonah,

I think it is remarkable that you were able to get the results that you did from the material given that it was in written form only. You didn't any hands-on guidance, and you still experienced positive results! That's a success story in my book.

 

[Doc]

Sirs,



I usually don’t except anything until proven first hand to me. I can, however, accept some things without proof as being possible within the realm of my technical knowledge base. This being the case with the majority of the discussions above.

I have tried the examples put forward in the post above and yes, I agree, some fascinating stuff – I accepted from the descriptions that the principals were understandable, in my mind, before proving them through implementation to be possible. Extremely well written descriptions by the way, very hard to convey in written form.



Now, that said – I have a problem in my mind with the explanation of increased stability through the last paragraph of the following:



Kembudo-kia kempoka wrote:

“….Standing in your right neutral bow, throw an upward thrusting elbow with the lead hand, ending with the fist somewhere next to the skull, around the ear-ish. Have your training partner pull down on your elbow. It will cave with little encouragement (note: this is the vector of resistance against the line of drive of the strike, usually provided by their chin). Do it again, but this time, grab the back of your head at the top of the strike. Have your partner pull down on it. It will be harder, because now you’ve added the support of your spine and back muscles to it: They have to pull your whole body forward. And if you did the corrective stamp when you stepped, that will be even harder still. Now for the kewl part. Do it again. But this time, just reach out and touch the side of your head with one finger. Have your friend test it. Even though your hand is not wrapped around your skull, he will have as-hard a time moving it. Why? Because the body is electric, and being so, is empowered by closing or chaining circuits. A hand floating in the air isn’t electrically AS connected to the body as one that has some closure, created by simply touching yourself. By merely closing the circuit, you add about another 25-75% of strength/stability to the limb in that position….”



I’m not saying the experiment didn’t work because it seemed to do so. What I am saying is, I have a hard time understanding how the completion of a non-specific electrical circuit by touching a finger to the head will increase the stability of the arm / strike. Something I can’t grasp



I would have a better time understanding if the theory was that the minor alteration of extending the finger to the head makes minor changes to the muscles within the hand, arm, shoulder thus increasing or bettering the Neuro-Physiologic Congruency / Anatomic alignment etc.



May be I am missing something but some further discussion may help.



Huge respect to both “Kembudo-kia kempoka” and “Doc”, and await some healthy ‘Jonah’s mind changing’ discussion



Jonah

Accept the positive results and apply it where you feel it may help you, and also accept that through this medium, you're asking alot in the "Why does this work department." At this stage "positive results" is more important than "positive understanding." Complex execution is hard enough, but giving an understanding to information that is very specific in application is even more difficult and probably useless to the ultimate goal of effectiveness. The best lesson here is there is a vast amount of information available for those who seek it.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Sirs,



I usually don’t except anything until proven first hand to me. I can, however, accept some things without proof as being possible within the realm of my technical knowledge base. This being the case with the majority of the discussions above.

I have tried the examples put forward in the post above and yes, I agree, some fascinating stuff – I accepted from the descriptions that the principals were understandable, in my mind, before proving them through implementation to be possible. Extremely well written descriptions by the way, very hard to convey in written form.



Now, that said – I have a problem in my mind with the explanation of increased stability through the last paragraph of the following:



Kembudo-kia kempoka wrote:

“….Standing in your right neutral bow, throw an upward thrusting elbow with the lead hand, ending with the fist somewhere next to the skull, around the ear-ish. Have your training partner pull down on your elbow. It will cave with little encouragement (note: this is the vector of resistance against the line of drive of the strike, usually provided by their chin). Do it again, but this time, grab the back of your head at the top of the strike. Have your partner pull down on it. It will be harder, because now you’ve added the support of your spine and back muscles to it: They have to pull your whole body forward. And if you did the corrective stamp when you stepped, that will be even harder still. Now for the kewl part. Do it again. But this time, just reach out and touch the side of your head with one finger. Have your friend test it. Even though your hand is not wrapped around your skull, he will have as-hard a time moving it. Why? Because the body is electric, and being so, is empowered by closing or chaining circuits. A hand floating in the air isn’t electrically AS connected to the body as one that has some closure, created by simply touching yourself. By merely closing the circuit, you add about another 25-75% of strength/stability to the limb in that position….”



I’m not saying the experiment didn’t work because it seemed to do so. What I am saying is, I have a hard time understanding how the completion of a non-specific electrical circuit by touching a finger to the head will increase the stability of the arm / strike. Something I can’t grasp



I would have a better time understanding if the theory was that the minor alteration of extending the finger to the head makes minor changes to the muscles within the hand, arm, shoulder thus increasing or bettering the Neuro-Physiologic Congruency / Anatomic alignment etc.



May be I am missing something but some further discussion may help.



Huge respect to both “Kembudo-kia kempoka” and “Doc”, and await some healthy ‘Jonah’s mind changing’ discussion



Jonah

I suspect the finger touching improves the stability of the position not because of a completed electrical circuit but because it augments our "position sense" and allows earlier and more effective adjustments to maintain position. in effect it's easier to maintain anatomic alignment if your unconscious mind knows where everything is.

An everyday example of this phenomena is the use of a cane to stablize gait. A single 3 ft stick in and of itself adds little stability and would need phenomenal upperbody strength to do so. The cane does add one more piece of information for the brain as to ground position and as such peoples gaits can become more natural and effective.

I agree with Doc however that in the early going just accept that something works and that a specific understanding will not allow it to work faster or more efficiently.

Jeff

 

[Doc]

I suspect the finger touching improves the stability of the position not because of a completed electrical circuit but because it augments our "position sense" and allows earlier and more effective adjustments to maintain position. in effect it's easier to maintain anatomic alignment if your unconscious mind knows where everything is.

An everyday example of this phenomena is the use of a cane to stablize gait. A single 3 ft stick in and of itself adds little stability and would need phenomenal upperbody strength to do so. The cane does add one more piece of information for the brain as to ground position and as such peoples gaits can become more natural and effective.

I agree with Doc however that in the early going just accept that something works and that a specific understanding will not allow it to work faster or more efficiently.

Jeff

Dam you're good Doc.

 

[howardr]

Dam you're good Doc.

So, maybe "completing the circuit" is really a metaphor for something else (what Kenpodoc said). A vivid, useful metaphor, but still a metaphor. Am I on to something?