The Great "what If..."

[N1ck8586]

Thats a very bold statement! There are so many different schools out there with so many different training routines, so to sum it all up and say for all kenpoists inspite of rank or experience to be weak on the ground is a bold generalisation Mr Trevor Sherman to name one from what iv seen is very skilled on the ground.....just an example. take it easy guys.

 

[Blindside]

Thats a very bold statement! There are so many different schools out there with so many different training routines, so to sum it all up and say for all kenpoists inspite of rank or experience to be weak on the ground is a bold generalisation Mr Trevor Sherman to name one from what iv seen is very skilled on the ground.....just an example. take it easy guys.

I'm willing to make that "bold generalisation" again, as I already did earlier on this thread, most kenpoists are not strong on the ground, if they are it generally is because they cross-trained. I'm the first to admit I am not strong on the ground, if I'm lucky I'm adequate, but I owe most of that knowledge to a year of BJJ and 6 months of judo. Please point out examples of kenpoists who you would consider to be "very skilled" on the ground that have trained solely in kenpo.

Lamont

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Please point out examples of kenpoists who you would consider to be "very skilled" on the ground that have trained solely in kenpo.

Lamont

Excellent point.

I made it a point at several times to add focus on judo and grappling, and at times the belt cards for my guys have had japanese names for judo throws, then the English interpretations of the japanese names (after all, kenpo is spasosed to be American, ne?), and so on. I know my guys can roll, but it's either because I taught them, or they were good at it before they got to me (college wrestlers, etc.).

For my two cents, kenpo in it's recent incarnations is not designed to be a ground art, but that doesn't take away from it's upright effectiveness. The MMA craze has spotlighted the ground game, and made it a hyper-focus. There are guys in kenpo who say the grappling has been there all along. If that's true, why was I able to go through a half-dozen champion kenpo black belts in a half-hour, submitting them all, with only months of BJJ...and all of these guys could whoop me on our feet (circa 1990-91, when nobody had seen a UFC yet, because they didn't exist).

Despite the "if you turn your head sideways and squint at parting wings under full moonlight, there's a dismount possibility" stuff, I ain't buying it. If you want a dismount, learn a proper dismount. Kenpo, ideally, should keep you off the floor. Couple of quick shots to nasty targets, and run like heck while the guy's still reeling. THAT is the essence of effective self-defense. This "me macho man; me stand here and battle you to finish for bragging rights of supremacy" thing is only since the UFC. It's for professional fighters with purses on the line, not how you should train to handle a confrontation in the stadium parking garage with 3 guys against you.

In older kenpo camps, there was some fighting from the ground, as I described on a different thread, and Doc has some nostalgic footage of: Sparring from the ground, on your back, your side, your butt, from a crawl position, defending and attacking from each of these to the different directions of the clock. Technically, it's ground-fighting; it's also kenpo. But it's not grappling. So there IS such a thing as kenpo groundfighting, but I don't know anyone who teaches it anymore...too grueling, and not sexy enough to keep a classes attention.

Thanks for the throught-provoking thread. Kempojujutsu3 was on another forum describing MMA/BJJ terms in their old Japanese Judo/Jujutsu nomenclature, and I knew exactly what he was referring to because I've put my nose to the same grindstone a couple of times. It then occurred to me that the vast majority of kenpo practitioners would not be able to track the conversation without a Judo text on their desk, so I'm circumstantially compelled to cede your point about kenpoist-grapplers having sourced their info elsewhere.

Be good,

Dave.

 

[IWishToLearn]

This "me macho man; me stand here and battle you to finish for bragging rights of supremacy" thing is only since the UFC. It's for professional fighters with purses on the line, not how you should train to handle a confrontation in the stadium parking garage with 3 guys against you.

Heh. Nicely put Meester Dave!

 

[kempo-vjj]

I think this post has already really been answered. I think the moves are there, it's about if yu have learned them in a different aspect than stand up. I have trained in a few styles, and the thing I find most interesting is the similiarity in body movement. This is why I think only teaching technique, and not theory dumbs a person down. I have found when I grasp onto a theory that many doors unlock. Adding theory into yur kenpo you learn these techniques have many inserts. Doing groundwork, I soon learned that my wrist locks also work while on the ground, not just for stand up and throws and whatever else. As my instructor puts it not to simply understand but to overstand. If that's even a word, but it works for us. I do think theory is learned better at say a yellow belt, or after basics are acheived.

 

[MJS]

I guess my thoughts are, sure, we have all of our 'nasty' things we can do. Usually though, when we mention those nasty things, its also stated that the other guy is capable of doing the same thing. So in essence, it seems like they counter act each other. When I ask the question, I'm looking for something specific. In other words, a technique that we can do if we're mounted, one if we're side mounted, one if we're in their guard, etc. Sorry, but I'm just not seeing it. If there is a chance I could end up in a bad position, I want something that I can rely on, something I know has high odds of working. This is the #1 reason I cross train.

I love Kenpo. If I didn't I wouldn't have invested so many years into it. I don't say these things to belittle the art, I say them because I'm seeing something that IMO, is lacking, yet I hear that it isn't, but yet I never see solid proof. Who knows...maybe I'm still missing it.

Mike

 

[kidswarrior]

In older kenpo camps, there was some fighting from the ground, as I described on a different thread, and Doc has some nostalgic footage of: Sparring from the ground, on your back, your side, your butt, from a crawl position, defending and attacking from each of these to the different directions of the clock. Technically, it's ground-fighting; it's also kenpo. But it's not grappling. So there IS such a thing as kenpo groundfighting, but I don't know anyone who teaches it anymore...too grueling, and not sexy enough to keep a classes attention.

Be good,

Dave.

Well, I've lucked into doing that throwback style of groundfighting in my kempo because of initial training in hapkido, and substantial cross training in Kung Fu San Soo--lots of ground fighting, but not so much grappling in the BJJ or MMA mold. So, I teach lots of the stuff you mention, Dave, and maybe I'll lose (or have lost?) some students over it. But I want my guys to be ready for the street, the pavement arena, not the spotlight-and-glory arena. So, gotta follow my conscience (now if they want to begin cross training in grappling, after reaching blue or green belt with me, that's OK, too. Maybe they'll bring back something useful and we'll all learn from it).

 

[kidswarrior]

Adding theory into yur kenpo you learn these techniques have many inserts. Doing groundwork, I soon learned that my wrist locks also work while on the ground, not just for stand up and throws and whatever else. As my instructor puts it not to simply understand but to overstand.

Good point. We practice forms from the ground on our backs and sides, sometimes adding an 'attacker' to visualize and create new bunkai (amazing what leg movements turn into/ward off/attack from this position). This may all be old hat for some seniors out there, but I'm a relative newbie at 14 years in Asian arts, so if I'm merely reinventing the wheel, old timers in the arts please forgive me.

Oh, and I agree with your point about 'theory.' Kane and Wilder in The Way of Kata draw the distinction between an art's strategy (always true in every situation/preplanned) and tactics (adapted for the situation and changing with it). Without a clear strategy, an 'art' is merely a collection of techniques. At least, I believe that's the point you're making, with which I concur.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Please point out examples of kenpoists who you would consider to be "very skilled" on the ground that have trained solely in kenpo.

Lamont

Better question. Point out examples of Kenpoists who would be considered "very skilled" that have trained solely in Kenpo.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Despite the "if you turn your head sideways and squint at parting wings under full moonlight, there's a dismount possibility" stuff, I ain't buying it.

too funny :rofl:

Kempojujutsu3 was on another forum describing MMA/BJJ terms in their old Japanese Judo/Jujutsu nomenclature, and I knew exactly what he was referring to because I've put my nose to the same grindstone a couple of times. It then occurred to me that the vast majority of kenpo practitioners would not be able to track the conversation without a Judo text on their desk.... Dave.

Are you implying that I purposely posted a conversation that couldn't be tracked by most of the readers just to get some of them thinking and to point out that there is so much more out there? Noooooo couldn't be. :rofl:

You're the best Dave. One of the reasons I stay on the forums.

 

[rockky]

i had forgotten that i'd asked this question... i stumbled upon it when i saw the jeff speakman gauntlet on youtube and saw "gripping leaves" for the first time.

anyway, it seems to me that im going to study jujitsu after i earn my kenpo black belt in about a year or so. i saw some critiques on the jeff speakman techniques "Kenpo 5.0" on another forum:

http://www.karateforums.com/kenpo-5-0-vt28017.html

I think the dominant point that stuck in my mind was that in order to execute grappling moves, one should have a full understanding of grappling itself.

I would like to know this, any advice on avoiding takedowns...

i have another question related but I'll post it as a new thread.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

i had forgotten that i'd asked this question... i stumbled upon it when i saw the jeff speakman gauntlet on youtube and saw "gripping leaves" for the first time.

anyway, it seems to me that im going to study jujitsu after i earn my kenpo black belt in about a year or so. i saw some critiques on the jeff speakman techniques "Kenpo 5.0" on another forum:

http://www.karateforums.com/kenpo-5-0-vt28017.html

I think the dominant point that stuck in my mind was that in order to execute grappling moves, one should have a full understanding of grappling itself.

I would like to know this, any advice on avoiding takedowns...

i have another question related but I'll post it as a new thread.

1) Be aware of range

2) Keep your hips low

3) Keep one hand ready to "frame out" or "underhook"

4) Learn a "whizzer"

5) Circular footwork

 

[Doc]

i've been a kenpo guy for a long time, and i love kenpo. but we are weak on the ground.

What do you mean when you say "we?"

 

[Blindside]

What do you mean when you say "we?"

Psst, Doc you already said this on the top of page 2.

 

[INDYFIGHTER]

I don't train how to fight on the ground as much as I train to not be taken down. I'm 150lbs so the last place I ever want to be is under someone.

 

[Flying Crane]

For my two cents, kenpo in it's recent incarnations is not designed to be a ground art, but that doesn't take away from it's upright effectiveness. The MMA craze has spotlighted the ground game, and made it a hyper-focus. There are guys in kenpo who say the grappling has been there all along. If that's true, why was I able to go through a half-dozen champion kenpo black belts in a half-hour, submitting them all, with only months of BJJ...and all of these guys could whoop me on our feet (circa 1990-91, when nobody had seen a UFC yet, because they didn't exist).

Despite the "if you turn your head sideways and squint at parting wings under full moonlight, there's a dismount possibility" stuff, I ain't buying it. If you want a dismount, learn a proper dismount. Kenpo, ideally, should keep you off the floor. Couple of quick shots to nasty targets, and run like heck while the guy's still reeling. THAT is the essence of effective self-defense. This "me macho man; me stand here and battle you to finish for bragging rights of supremacy" thing is only since the UFC. It's for professional fighters with purses on the line, not how you should train to handle a confrontation in the stadium parking garage with 3 guys against you.

In older kenpo camps, there was some fighting from the ground, as I described on a different thread, and Doc has some nostalgic footage of: Sparring from the ground, on your back, your side, your butt, from a crawl position, defending and attacking from each of these to the different directions of the clock. Technically, it's ground-fighting; it's also kenpo. But it's not grappling. So there IS such a thing as kenpo groundfighting, but I don't know anyone who teaches it anymore...too grueling, and not sexy enough to keep a classes attention.

Be good,

Dave.

I cannot comment on kenpo in its recent incarnations, but I can comment on it from the viewpoint of Tracys. My instructor began in the Tracys lineage in about 1963 or so, and studied directly under the Tracy brothers. I did discuss this issue with him a bit, not too long ago.

We do practice breakfalling, and defending ourselves from the ground. Our goal is to get up from the ground as quickly as possible, and carry the fight from up on our feet, or else simply get away. As you state, we have ground fighting, but it is not grappling. We have no interest in staying on the ground and turning the fight into a submission match. I agree, that is the realm of professional fighters who are competing for a fat purse. Instead we focus on moving and striking from the ground and not allowing the bad guy to get in and actually grapple with us. At the first opportunity, we are up on our feet where we are strongest. Again, like you say, give him some good shots and get away without turning it into a grappling match. That is self defense. It's not prize fighting.

According to my instructor, the Tracys told him that when they trained with Mr. Parker they often practiced falling and rolling and ground work. It was a standard and regular part of training. They have also stated that Mr. Parker was a very formidable opponent on the mat, in a grappling situation. In the early days, groundwork was definitely part of what they did.

It seems that much of this did not get codified into the SD techniques. While we have some basic takedowns and simple followups in some of our SD techs in Tracys, we don't have the groundwork that we practice codified and named as SD techs. My instructor indicated that a lot of this material, while it was always there, just never got codified in the same way. So if someone is sticking strictly to the codified curriculum, the named SD techs, then yes, they are missing the groundwork. My first instructors stuck to the codified curriculum and did not give much groundwork to me. What little I had was from a college buddy who was a judo guy. But my current instructor is teaching the groundwork in the same way it was taught to him by the Tracys, and how they learned it from Mr. Parker.

 

[Doc]

Psst, Doc you already said this on the top of page 2.

Oh, so now you're trying to say I'm senile or something? - What were we talking about again?

 

[rockky]

1) Be aware of range

2) Keep your hips low

3) Keep one hand ready to "frame out" or "underhook"

4) Learn a "whizzer"

5) Circular footwork

This is what I mean: I don't know what most of the above means because I don't know grappling... I'm not sure what to do with "be aware of range" since the kenpo I learned, i'd get right in their face to do a lot of hand technique.

I mean, let's say I throw a punch, and the guy ducks down, and he's going to grab both my legs from underneath and take me down.... attempt a "closed kneel" and an inward elbow?? or by then am i in the domain of grappling and strikes won't work effectivley?