Bruises, Indexes, and Halting Grapplers

[Makalakumu]

Wow, I read this entire thread and went for a walk with my kids to think about it.

Regarding MMA...

Years ago before UFC, I trained in kickboxing and wrestling. We took each other down and practiced shooting regularly. It's always boggled my mind that so many MAists in North America didn't know how to defend against the shoot or even what they should do on the ground.

Anyway, what the UFC did is show that those techniques were important too. Before, fighters had huge gaps in their defenses...and a system arose to fill that gap. Now, pretty much everyone looks the same and there is nothing really innovative being done in the octagon anymore.

With that being said, the things that go on in the octagon are only the tip of the iceberg. I have had the priviledge of meeting and training with some masters that wouldn't set foot in that setting for various reasons (T.T Liang happened to be 80 years old when the UFC first came out). A lot of things they did and do have never been seen in the octagon and may never be...but they ARE still applicable in self defense situations...

This leads me to believe that what we see in MMA is not the pinnacle, but only the tip of the iceberg.

Regarding the index SL4 technique...

The technique described in beautiful detail sounded familiar to me. I have no kenpo experience (but after reading this thread, I wish to change that) so bare with me.

In Tai Chi Chuan there is a technique called Repulse Monkey. It sounds almost exactly like what was described. If you find a good teacher of Tai Chi (which is really difficult because of a proliferation of the hippy dippy tai cheese garbage out there) that person will describe Repulse Monkey in the same language that it was described and then that person will help articulate your body down to the minutae in order to get the desired effect.

The end result. My tai chi teacher asked me to shoot in on him as hard as I wanted to. I did so, full blast, from across the room, just as I did when I was in the ring. I have trained hard almost every day for 17 years. I lift weights, do cardio, regularly attend class, and practice on my own. My tai chi teacher is in his late forties. He is balding and has a nice gut. I hit and "bounced" so hard that I was knocked unconscious. I felt like I had hit a brick wall.

My conclusion. I want to see this technique from a Kenpo perspective. I am almost positive that it's Repulse Monkey. And if that is the case, I can honestly say that it is nothing new. People have been practicing Repulse Monkey for hundreds of years. What it does show is that there is an incredible depth of MA technique and the moment we think we know something, there is always more we can learn.

Tai Chi and Kenpo

Unfortunately, there are no kenpo schools within a hundred miles of my home. But there is my tai chi teacher who is a direct student of T.T. Liang. It sounds like there is a lot of crossover. On an interesting side note, if you really learn tai chi push hands and not the push and shove chop socky stuff, you will learn how to articulate your body as described above IN MOTION and MOVE articulated so one is rooted and able to deliver power. A person can move around you and attack all they want and you will be able to neutralize their attacks and knock them over. Whether you strike or grapple, the end result is the same.

Very interesting stuff. My tai chi teacher can do these things. I am not so skilled, but would like to learn more...and Kenpo has now seriously sparked my interest.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Doc]

Personally, I'd only like to CHALLENGE you to a good game of Chess.
That's about it.

(I'd wooop ya...)

Your Brother
John

Of that I have no doubt sir.

 

[kenposikh]

It is always good to hear other peoples experiences especially when they start as a sceptic, take on board what Dr Chapel is teaching and then recreate it in a sterile environment. There is so much more out there if only we are willing to show some humility and seek it out.

With regard to Shortay,Soulman and Amrik, I am glad that you have learnt from what I first saw and sought out as exceptional Kenpo.

Kevin J Mills

We certainly did, and thank you for being dedicated to not only the art but the futherance of knowledge for your students very much appreciated.

NOw must practice on keeping my foot out of the hole.

 

[eyebeams]

I can *kind* of visualize what's being talked about here and I must say that it sounds an awful lot like:

* San ti in Xingi.
* Several movements in Taiji, but the principles sound *very* Taiji.

I would very much like to see a pic or clip to see if the external posture looks at all similar.

 

[Doc]

I can *kind* of visualize what's being talked about here and I must say that it sounds an awful lot like:

* San ti in Xingi.
* Several movements in Taiji, but the principles sound *very* Taiji.

I would very much like to see a pic or clip to see if the external posture looks at all similar.

It's just a Chinese neutral bow, that's all.

 

[kenpo_cory]

As a grappler, it looks like an open invitation to slip that lead hand at the elbow, and shoot to the waist, knees or feet for a take-down. My instinct in reaction to these perceived strategic weaknesses is to drop the elbow to cover my ribs, and get my lead arm in a vertical plane position in front of my body. When the arm is up (in the braced index position), a force coming straight in will bump into compressing the humerus straight back into the shoulder girdle. With the elbow down (bones in vertical plane), that same compressing force now only has to compress the hinge joint of the elbow, and over come the triceps alone, instead of the muscles of the back and shoulders, and the non-compressable bone shaft, lengthwise. So my instinct actually causes a weakening of the structure built around this ring of shoulders, arms and hands.

I was wondering how do you meet the low oncoming force? (waist or knee level) Do you bend forward? I was thinking, by what has been described, bending forward would disrupt your structural integrity. The answer was probably right in front of my face on your post and i just didnt realize it.

 

[Doc]

I was wondering how do you meet the low oncoming force? (waist or knee level) Do you bend forward? I was thinking, by what has been described, bending forward would disrupt your structural integrity. The answer was probably right in front of my face on your post and i just didnt realize it.

consider there are stances that are designed to lower the carriage height without affecting structural integrity.

 

[kenpo_cory]

consider there are stances that are designed to lower the carriage height without affecting structural integrity.

Thats what i was thinking. Now time to go experiment some more. Thanks Doc.

 

[Simon Curran]

This last weekend, my brother and I had the pleasure attending a seminar taught by Dr Chapél in Exeter, England (thanks go out to all of the good people at BKKU for allowing us to come) and I must say that it could only be classed as a life altering experience for me especially (I "volunteered" for a pressure point knock out...)
During the course of the seminar, my eyes were opened to a whole new world I didn't know existed, and I left with not only the fantastic information imparted to us, but also with a fresh new outlook, I for one, think it is great to be given a glimpse of how much I actually don't know, this particular onion has seemingly infinate layers, at the centre of which is DOC, (thank you again sir, hope to see you again as soon as possible)
We were given a few experiments to work with, and I can say with certainty that these things work, and I am definately going to be working on the corrections Dr Chapél gave us, in order to improve the quality of my basics, and thus, hopefully be better equipped to deal with the next layer as and when I have the pleasure of meeting him again
Anyone with the chance of working with him should run, not walk, and make an attempt to enroll themselves to the Martial Science University, remembering to take along with them a good portion of scepticism and an open mind, your scepticism will be repaid with an eye opening experience, even if you don't understand what it was that just happened.
This is in no way meant as a blatent "plug" by the way, it's just my personal opinion based upon my experience, but I mean it sincerely, if you are in his vicinity and are willing to empty your cup (I just emptied my few drops over into a swimming pool...) then you will almost certainly learn something.
Thanks
Simon

 

[eyebeams]

Given the comments about half-moon stepping/tsuruashi, I wonder what folks normally use it for. I personally can't contemplate judging it without looking at the context it's being used in.

 

[kenposikh]

This last weekend, my brother and I had the pleasure attending a seminar taught by Dr Chapél in Exeter, England (thanks go out to all of the good people at BKKU for allowing us to come) and I must say that it could only be classed as a life altering experience for me especially (I "volunteered" for a pressure point knock out...)

Hey Simon glad you've recovered hope your journey back was trouble free.

Anyway it was a pleasure to meet you and your brother and you were more thank welcome to the seminar after all it was an open seminar open to everyone regardless of art/science/style.

We had a good attendance there about 80 to 100 people and guess what those that weren't missed the very experience you enjoyed and as you say an I opener for sure. I feel that what you learnt in that short space of time improved your whole kenpo and not just an individual technique.

We here in the BKKU are extremely lucky to have a dedicated instructor such as Mr Kevin Mills who has spent the last 5 years training with Doctor Chapel in order to incorporate his knowledge into our kenpo. I am just beginning to learn SL4 and hope I didn't let my instructor or the Doc down over the weekend. Being greedy for knowledge I also attended his Seminar in Ireland the day previous and can safely say that the money I spent was more than worth it.

Hope to see you in the future, maybe at the BKKU summer Camp where we have Ed Parker attending this year more details are on our website http://www.bkku.com.

Again it was a pleasure to meet you both and to put a name to the face.

Amrik

 

[howardr]

I feel that what you learnt in that short space of time improved your whole kenpo and not just an individual technique.

In my mind, that's one of the keys to Dr. Chapel's amazing teaching methodology. Rather than simply offering improvements to isolated techniques (though certainly that occurs throughout), the mechanisms in SL-4 are explored by means of the techniques (and other drills and basics too). The techniques are the vehicles in which the various principles and mechanisms are demonstrated and physically inculcated. The goal, as it appears to me, is to automatize the principles and mechanisms into all movement (whether formal technique or otherwise). The result would be that any action taken will by default implement all the necessary mechanisms (indices, PAMs, BAMs, skips, spatial distortions, misalignments, etc.), which will be executed naturally. This may occur in the form of a particular technique, but that isn't required since any reaction will be anatomically correct. Therefore, spontaneity is achieved, but not spontaneity in violation of physically correct movement - spontaneity that strictly adheres to anatomically correct movement.

As a quick example: when first learning to step back into a proper neutral bow several years ago with the skips and PAMs, I had to think about each step of the process (because it was alien to my previous motion Kenpo training). However, at some point (quite some time ago) I started to naturally step back into a neutral bow with skipping and with PAMing built-in. Now I don't even think about it. It's positiviely uncomfortable and feels "unnatural" and "bad" now, if I try various stancework without the corresponding SL-4 alignment mechanisms.

One other "funny" anecdote: we've got a large dog who loves to leap at us unexpectedly when he's excited. If I just stand there, the dog can easily knock me over when he leaps. I'm forced to actively recover my balance. However, if I do a quick skip/PAM the dog literally bounces right off me and I barely feel it at all. It's amusing but is a testament to the validity of the mechanisms. I might add that the dog jumps in a blink of an eye from point of origin with very little telegraphing, but I'm still able to execute the PAMs and skips. So, it is effective and fast.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

... So, it is effective and fast.

I'm just starting to get the mechanisms in place, and it's making an awesome difference in the raw power/authority of the basics' delivery (still have to fix my feet all the time, but that's what practice is for). Have started using corrective alignment mechanisms in adjusting to save my elbows and shoulders, and now am wondering how I made it through these years without it.

 

[Goldendragon7]

After I started using corrective alignment mechanisms, I now am wondering how I made it through these years without it.

"Proper Body Alignment" is a definite must!!! Not only to save your elbows, knees and other body parts from injury, but in the effectivness of your intended actions!

:asian:

 

[Shortay]

Hey Simon, it was cool to meet you finally at the seminar in Exeter - great to put a face to a name!

And also great to get everyone together, from beginners to those who have dedicated their lives to Kenpo, all learning from scratch together. It was an incredible and humbling experience to see all our Dan grades (up to 10th Dan) take off their stripes and put on a simple black belt in recognition that everyone can learn something from Dr Chapel.

I think those who were sceptical ended up enjoying it the most!

The man himself was as ever, on top form and I can't wait for the next installment! See you soon Doc xx

 

[kenposikh]

It was an incredible and humbling experience to see all our Dan grades (up to 10th Dan) take off their stripes and put on a simple black belt in recognition that everyone can learn something from Dr Chapel.

I think those who were sceptical ended up enjoying it the most!

The man himself was as ever, on top form and I can't wait for the next installment! See you soon Doc xx

Never a truer word spoken now if you weren't there you missed a treat and for those of you who can go see the man with an open mind.

Good to see you again Shortay on top form as ever glad I didn't have to charge you this time

See you soon and don't work too hard. X

 

[Doc]

Hey Simon, it was cool to meet you finally at the seminar in Exeter - great to put a face to a name!

And also great to get everyone together, from beginners to those who have dedicated their lives to Kenpo, all learning from scratch together. It was an incredible and humbling experience to see all our Dan grades (up to 10th Dan) take off their stripes and put on a simple black belt in recognition that everyone can learn something from Dr Chapel.

I think those who were sceptical ended up enjoying it the most!

The man himself was as ever, on top form and I can't wait for the next installment! See you soon Doc xx

Hi, Baby! See you soon. I have your spot picked out already. Same Place as Mr. & Mrs Mills. Ask him. Also your "escort" has been briefed as well.

 

[Doc]

Never a truer word spoken now if you weren't there you missed a treat and for those of you who can go see the man with an open mind.

Good to see you again Shortay on top form as ever glad I didn't have to charge you this time

See you soon and don't work too hard. X

See you next month.

 

[Bode]

All these new students stopping into the school! Can't wait! For once I wont be the subject of the "Feeling is believing" tests. In the short amount of time you are all here I suppose Doc will have you "feel" a bit more than I.
Oh... wait... Doc insist's you see the movements as well.... so I guess that means I'm not off the hook!

 

[BlackCatBonz]

jeez......i wish i was in california sometimes