Bruises, Indexes, and Halting Grapplers

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Stopping a Grappler.

Now, the exercise that started all this. One guy goes into the braced index, doing all the fly-swatting and hoof stomping that goes into solidifying it. The udder-guy bum rushes him, straight on. Index-boy just sort of “settles” forward into the charging dude. “Bounce”.

Next piece: Bum-rushing guy tries to latch on to index-guy; index guy “settles” forward-ish with some authority, and bounces the bum rusher backwards off of him.

Next piece: Bum rusher entangles with the index-guy in a clinch, and tries to peel the hands apart. Well, based on how he has to reach and misalign himself to do it, and considering he’s an uncompleted circuit pulling and tugging on a completed circuit, not a whole lot of success there either.

Next Piece: “If I can’t go through, I’ll go around”. Index-guy makes small shifts in position to keep the guy in front of him (relationally), stamping that foot each shift to re-establish that AC state.

Next Piece: “If I can’t get around, I’ll go under”. This is the fun one for me, particularly because of my take on shoots and drops as a grappler. Point-karate has opened up the door for training some really quick, deceptive attack combinations. Kinda the sparring version of “look at the plane. Oops, you weren’t watching the sub-marine.” Among my favorites for using in challenge matches to get in on karate guys as a grappler were:

• Lead-leg Pull-drag Low-High Double Roundhouse kick, landing forward with all the momentum and body telegraphs predicting an incoming rear-hand/over-hand haymaker right. At the last second, while weight of heavy right is coming down towards their upraising guard, snap at the waist to drop very fast onto their lead leg, ear to the rear of their lead hip (outside line). Ensnare with clinch handwork, tangle up my legs, ankles and feet with theirs, and fold them backwards onto the ground.

• Flying lead hand backfist high into their face, followed by a drop & shoot to a double leg, single leg, or ankle pick. Selling the backfist would get their hands up nicely, and open the lower part of the body to the shoot.

A shoot is, by its very nature, a kamikaze attack. It is also, by its very nature, a state of forward-flying misalignment; say your hail-Mary’s, and go. Throw the sack of cement at their waist or legs, and keep your chin in. So back to the drill…

Guy rushes you to clinch; index-guy bumps him back. He recovers a bit, and shoots to the lower extremities or waist. Index guy maintains the relationship between the elbow and shoulder, so the humerus is still a lengthwise shaft that won’t compress without a telescope fracture, but rotates the forearm to a more vertical orientation, and wedges it into the oncoming crotch of the neck & shoulder of the shooter. Re-settle & index AC. Then, lean onto the now-stopped grappler with a slight forward shift, but maintain the integrity of the index; settle again. If you sense him regaining his poise for another forward attempt, settle again. There are some easy foot maneuver pieces, too, that let you keep your ankles out of reach while this is going on. An aligned guy with his elbow in the nook and forearm across the top of your back feels pretty dang heavy.

As the wrassler, when you shoot to the waist or legs, and hit that braced elbow with your cervico-thoracic junction (where your neck connects to your shoulders), it hurts. Stops you, jangles your bones and nerves. Bruises the heck outta you, too. Basic wrestling shoot, foiled.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

To be fair:

“On the other hand”…Does this mean all grapplers are destined to fail in their attacks on SL4 guys? Nah. I don’t believe in absolutes. The answer to all such questions: “It depends.” As an eclectic-arts-based grappler, I didn’t lay into the guys with some heavy stand-up ordnance first to mess with their heads and their guards, and I didn’t blend the shoot with “strategic entry subterfuge”. I’m sure that, given the opportunity to lay into some guys new to this, I could shake them loose (at least in their minds), and complete the take-down. I think it would not be hard to bait non-seasoned combatants into a trade of blows, and in doing so, get them to break their grip on the positional strengths of the braced index (i.e., un-touch their hands to respond to barrage).

“On the other hand”…But that isn’t a test of the technique or it’s concurrently running software applications; that’s a test of the personal combat experience of the individuals. And most of us saw this application of the braced index for the first time in this training session. I don’t honestly know what the outcome would be if these guys spent as much time on their AGM’s (anti-grapple mechanisms) as most grapplers spent on the mat. I know that I’ve spent a lot of time working on shoots and take-downs, and I firmly believe that shooting on Chapel with ill intent in my heart would get me really hurt.

Looking forward to the chat,

D.

 

[Michael Billings]

I gotta say, more than I can absorb at one sitting. But I fully intend to look at it as best I can, without having de Man to show me. I will be back on line in the morning ... after I read through this a couple of times.

Left over Right,
Thanks Dave

 

[Simon Curran]

Sounds like a lot of fun Dr Dave...

 

[kenposikh]

This doesn't make any sense. There is no way this is true unless your leaving out some details. You say they you didn't budge and the larger man bounced backwards. There has to be a considerable force applied by you to him to achieve that effect. How did you redirect his momentum? Maybe I would understand if someone described this technique in more detail.

Dear Sir,

Let me empahtically state that this is totally true my name is Amrik Singh I am an instructor with the British Kenpo Karate Union (BKKU) and I was the unfortunate person who charged Shortay, anyone who knows me also knows that I don't hold back, in this case it was a seriously bad move as with the charge and attempted grapple I shot back in pain. nay serious pain

 

[kenposikh]

Hi Shortay!
Great to see you on the forums - it's James from Cheltenham! Yup I think alot of us witnessed that attempted tackle on you after Dr Chapel showed you the correct stance alignments - its mind-alterating stuff alright.

Seeyou at the seminar in May - can't wait either!!

Soulman

and didn't you all laugh at a 16 stone hulk hitting a 7 stone woman and losing.

 

[bdparsons]

Interesting reading Dave, sounds a good deal (but not exactly) like certain tackle counters picked up through Hapkido over the years. Sometimes baffled me due to the contradiction of Hapkido's principle of non-resistance, but who was I to argue. Thanks for sharing, I know it took a while to put thoughts to screen, it's appreciated.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[howardr]

yes, the sceptic meter is likely going off for a lot of people. Wrestling has been an international sport for a long time, if a takedown defence that is this effective is possible, then why haven't they come up with it yet?

Not calling anyone a liar, just an observation.

Why guess would be that it does work, but it leaves something else open. In other words, yes it will counter that sort of shoot, but at the expense of something else.

Perhaps someone with a digital camcorder can provide a little clarification for the rest of us?

This is also in reply to the other skeptical fellow.

That you're skeptical of such claims sight unseen is understandable. I don't believe anyone is asking you to take it on faith. What I thought that Dr. Crouch was doing was simply testifying to the efficacy of certain SL4 mechanisms and their application against various grappling attacks. Dr. Crouch isn't simply any old "striking guy." He described his background so that the reader could see that he is making a judgment based on knowledge and experience and not conjecture. For what he was trying to accomplish, I think he was pretty effective and convincing at conveying his discoveries. Remember, Dr. Crouch sounds like a pretty ardent skeptic about such matters himself. He didn't take it on faith but had his BJJ friend, who isn't a student of Dr. Chapel, attack him to see if the mechanisms would function against a non-initiated, uncooperative aggressor (incidentally the sort of thing you don't see being done with no-touch knockout types and their ilk).

Now, in regard to the SL4 mechanisms themselves and their ability to do what Dr. Crouch says they do - well, they do. Here's one more voice to vouch for their validity. I've tried grappling (upper and lower) onto students who I outweighed by 30-40 pounds, who were using these mechanisms. I tried with a decent level of ferocity in a manner that I thought is at least realistic for the sort of attack an untrained or semi-trained person would employ and the anti-grappling mechanisms worked. I don't say trained because I haven't been recently involved in a grappling specific training of the sort that people here associate with the word, e.g., BJJ, MMA, Judo, etc. But, I have studied some of these sort of arts in the past, and so I have some appreciation of what and how they try to accomplish their goals. And I've also had significantly larger and heavier (and more skilled) individuals charge, attempt grappling (upper and lower) attacks and I've been very successful with employing the SL4 mechanisms to neutralize and control the onslaught. In fact, I significantly reduce the amount of force I apply to probably about 25% so as to not injure my attacker, and it was still fully effective. This stuff works.

Further, my wife has successfully been able to use these mechanisms against male attackers who significantly outweigh her. I think for women these SL4 tools are especially important, since grappling type attacks are especially prevalent in assaults upon them.

Now, I think one has to be realistic about what is being talked about here. No one is saying that these mechanisms are automatically infallible. That would be silly. Obviously, they can only work IF you can enact them before being grappled, locked, pinned, and so on. But such a "restriction," is true for anything in the martial arts. You might have the strongest block in the world but if the guy punches you before you pull it off, well I guess it's formidable strength was academic. So, like anything you have to practice it. The more you practice it the better you'll get. Does that mean even if you've practiced it extensively that you'll never be grappled and taken down. Who can make such a claim? It simply increases your odds significantly. Even something practiced still has to be engaged and if the other guy is sneakier and faster than you, he may very well successfully get you before you can counter-act his attack. (Dr. Chapel has also shown us at times counter-mechanisms to some of the counter-mechanisms, so apparently almost anything can be defeated if you have the knowledge.)

I feel like the above should be taken for granted. Unfortunately, I detected a need to address this from the tone of some of the posters. Anti-grappling mechanisms exist, but that doesn't equate to secret knowledge once learned making you immune to any and all grappling attacks under all circumstances. That's a pretty important difference. Don't set up a strawman.

Finally, does this mean that a non-professional student learning these mechanisms can defeat some gargantuan professional cage fighter who trains eight hours a day, six days a week? Well, just ask yourself if that's really necessary. I don't think it is. The fact is it CAN certainly help the normal person in the sort of situations and against the sort of people that he or she is likely to encounter. And, that's what really counts.

 

[Michael Billings]

But this time, just reach out and touch the side of your head with one finger. Have your friend test it. Even though your hand is not wrapped around your skull, he will have as-hard a time moving it.

OK this one I tried and it worked. I applied it to a Circling Wing application also and it was structurally superior to what I had been doing before.

-Michael

 

[Michael Billings]

My instinct in reaction to these perceived strategic weaknesses is to drop the elbow to cover my ribs, and get my lead arm in a vertical plane position in front of my body. When the arm is up (in the braced index position), a force coming straight in will bump into compressing the humerus straight back into the shoulder girdle. With the elbow down (bones in vertical plane), that same compressing force now only has to compress the hinge joint of the elbow, and over come the triceps alone, instead of the muscles of the back and shoulders, and the non-compressable bone shaft, lengthwise. So my instinct actually causes a weakening of the structure built around this ring of shoulders, arms and hands.

This is structurally sounder in the depth dimension due to the bracing angle afforded with the lead arm, and support from the back arm. The rotation of the arm also increases muscular tension, or actually just takes the slack out as I can remain relaxed, as well as bracing the radius and ulna. I also strike or brace at the attachment point of the sternoclido mastoid inside the clavical, remembering the interior pressure points inside the neck and the dirction they need to be struck to activate them. It is the distance the arms need to travel, and how fast I can get them there to offset the shooters attempted leg hook that worries me.

I am outta here for Easter, but will play with this in class next week and get back with you on how it works for me. Interesting demo, even if I cannot make it work in a live fight. Obviously y'all can, we will see how I do.

Thanks,
-Michael

 

[howardr]

I am outta here for Easter, but will play with this in class next week and get back with you on how it works for me. Interesting demo, even if I cannot make it work in a live fight. Obviously y'all can, we will see how I do.

Thanks,
-Michael

Mr. Billings, I've taken a camp seminar or two from you years ago (in an assocation that I don't believe you are a member of any longer) and was quite impressed with your movement (speed, power and crispness) and oral articulation of the art. You strike me, from what I observed and from your posts here, as an honest active minded individual who doesn't have a vested interest. If you find something that works better, you'll adopt it. If it doesn't, you'll at least give it a fair shake. I just have sneaking suspicion that if you spent some time with Dr. Chapel, it might reorient and change your entire approach to Kenpo. In other words, I think you'd really dig it!

 

[howardr]

End result? I stop him with da elbow ting; he stops me with da elbow ting, and I won't rest until I have accomplished 2 things:
1. Gotten really good at the elbow thing (I have some bad habits...I compromise my upright stances in favor of the old habit of broadening my base by srawling the legs...good practice in grappling, bad practice in kenpo);
2. Figger'd how to slip that friggin' index. Me no likey bags-o-bricks on by back.

Regarding #2: that's what worries me! The cat'll be outta the bag and you wrestlers and grapplers will spread counters to these counters! Well, hopefully it will at least still work against the untrained and semi-trained.

Maybe some of this stuff should be kept on the low-down... :wink2:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Regarding #2: that's what worries me! The cat'll be outta the bag and you wrestlers and grapplers will spread counters to these counters! Well, hopefully it will at least still work against the untrained and semi-trained.

Maybe some of this stuff should be kept on the low-down... :wink2:

I'm only coming at it with half the picture. Besides, you think Doc ain't got more tricks up his sneaky little sleeves? (Yes, Doc, sneaky.)

Regards,

Dave

 

[relytjj]

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka,

Thanks for taking your time explaining the technique and the concepts behind it in some detail. While I obviously don't understand it just by reading your posts over the internet I have a much better idea of what your talking about.

 

[Shortay]

"Originally Posted by relytjj
This doesn't make any sense. There is no way this is true unless your leaving out some details. You say they you didn't budge and the larger man bounced backwards. There has to be a considerable force applied by you to him to achieve that effect. How did you redirect his momentum? Maybe I would understand if someone described this technique in more detail.



Dear Sir,

Let me empahtically state that this is totally true my name is Amrik Singh I am an instructor with the British Kenpo Karate Union (BKKU) and I was the unfortunate person who charged Shortay, anyone who knows me also knows that I don't hold back, in this case it was a seriously bad move as with the charge and attempted grapple I shot back in pain. nay serious pain"

Thank you Amrik, and James, for your posts. I know the whole thing sounds 'unlikely' but as you guys have confirmed, it is possible and did happen.


"and didn't you all laugh at a 16 stone hulk hitting a 7 stone woman and losing."

7 stone??? i like you SO much. And no I didn't laugh at all - particularly in view of the fact that I have my brown belt grading soon!!!

see you guys soon, thanks again

Shortay x

 

[Doc]

I'm only coming at it with half the picture. Besides, you think Doc ain't got more tricks up his sneaky little sleeves? (Yes, Doc, sneaky.)

Regards,

Dave

Yeah considering that was just the surface that one day - I might have a thing or two I haven't shown anyone. The reason is a simple one. Foundations must be sound and taught to allow these thngs to work automatically. Parker had a really deep bag of tricks.

As for the question about "why" grapplers don't use these things, always know that sport competition has always been the least sophisticated aspect of the "martial arts." In that venue knowledge is supplanted by youth and athleticism designed to function within set rules and venue limitations.Thus it is a "game." A serious game where injury is definitely possible, but still a game. Taken out of their element where there really are no rules on the street, "shooting" takes on a different look. Techniques someone would try in the "ring" don't look as promising on the street. Consequences of failure are too great where there is no referee or the option to "tap out" is removed and you could lose more than a match. Do you really think a guy would jump in the air and spin some kind of kick and fall to the ground if he knew that if he missed and didn't incapacitate you, that you might shove your fingers as deep in his eye sockets as you can?

Interactive bio-mechanical function is such a specialized field of study, few possess real knowledge even in limited professional athletics. I did a session with the UCLA foot ball team and pushed around players twice my size and a third my age. Showed a quarterback how to take the snap and postion himself in his drop where it was impossible to be stripped of the ball. My nephew's strength coach is a world record holder in the bench press. The method he taught my nephew was flawed and I increased his lift by 50 pounds by correcting his mechanics.

An old slight of build Chinese man used to push this big Hawaiian and Samoan around all the time with ease. Both Ed Parker and Tiny Lefiti learned their lessons well - and I am working on it. I often wondered what I might produce if I had a squadron of young men that I could teach eight hours a day, who were dedicated to nothing but the execution of SL-4 material, instead of the doctors, lawyers, cops and everyday people with careers, families, and mortgages. But then that is who modern self defense is supposed to be designed for, not professional athletes in a ring competing within rules against each other. That what I call "martial sport," and that's a long way from a street fight where I grew up.

I know there is a tendancy to think you can learn something by video but you can't learn anything of any depth. It just isn't possible, sorry. However I am considering perhaps a video of a "charge and bounce" so its effects can be seen, but learning it requires a change in "Kenpo philosophy" that most are unwilling to do, and it cannot be learned any other way. No ne wants to re-learn basics. Of course as long as they are happy with where they are that is not a bad thing, but I do not teach kenpo "piece meal." It doesn't work that way.

I am curious Dr. Dave what you and your friend came up with after what I shared with you in a couple of hours. And I have wanted to get with Mr. Billings for a long time. I know we would have some fun.

And for the person who questions "why" grapplers don't use this method; Don't think for a minute there is this "general knowledge" that all possess on some level. Don't think that for a minute. The question is not why I might know something that some others don't, but why they don't know something that I do. Excuse my "sleep deprived ramble."

 

[Doc]

Hi Shortay!
Great to see you on the forums - it's James from Cheltenham! Yup I think alot of us witnessed that attempted tackle on you after Dr Chapel showed you the correct stance alignments - its mind-alterating stuff alright.

Seeyou at the seminar in May - can't wait either!!

Soulman

See you there sir. I'm sure we'll have some more fun with "basics."

 

[Doc]

Dear Sir,

Let me empahtically state that this is totally true my name is Amrik Singh I am an instructor with the British Kenpo Karate Union (BKKU) and I was the unfortunate person who charged Shortay, anyone who knows me also knows that I don't hold back, in this case it was a seriously bad move as with the charge and attempted grapple I shot back in pain. nay serious pain

Hey Amrik, I look forward to seeing you in your new uniform.

 

[Doc]

When I met Dr Chapel he showed me the power of a simple index. (coupled with proper body alignment)

My nickname isn't particularly ironic, I am about 5'1'' and don't weigh an awful lot (about 126 pounds). Doc got one of our BKKU instructors to run full tilt at me. I was absolutely petrified as this gentleman outweighed me by, well, enough!!! It was a total no contest.

But I followed Doc's instructions to the letter and at the point of impact - I didn't budge. In fact it was the guy charging me who bumped right backwards and from his reaction had actually felt the full force of the impact rather than me!

Looking forward to seeing Doc in May and learning even more!

And for the record, I am the one that gave her that nickname. She is indeed a "Shortay" but also a "Cutie."

See you in May "Shortay."

 

[JenniM]

Just another voice to the testiment of SL4, I have been studying as a student of Dr Chapel since 2000, that is also with 25 years of motion Kenpo under my belt and not the air technique type either, having learnt and experienced the mechanisms and principles applied I would encourage anyone with an open mind to to seek out an SL4 instructor, if you take on board what is being given to you and most of the time freely, you will surely make your current level of Kenpo/MA more effective.

That is such a good attempt Dave at putting into words the complexities of such mechanisms.

It is always good to hear other peoples experiences especially when they start as a sceptic, take on board what Dr Chapel is teaching and then recreate it in a sterile environment. There is so much more out there if only we are willing to show some humility and seek it out.

With regard to Shortay,Soulman and Amrik, I am glad that you have learnt from what I first saw and sought out as exceptional Kenpo.

Kevin J Mills