kelly keltner
Black Belt
kelly keltner said:
Bruce Juchnik
- Thread starter Kempojujutsu
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kelly keltner
Black Belt
One other thing:I have never tried to raise anyones lineage to the level of "deity". My sole point is this: Mr. Juchnik has a lot of pertinent information, including but not limited to; videotaped interviews with people who studied with Mitrose in the 1940's and 50's, peolple who were close to Mitose near the end of his life, as well as the notification of death that was issued by the prison. He, Mr. Juchnik, also posseses a very interesting forensic handwriting analysis, which was performed by the same forensic hand writing specialist who provided expert witness testimony in the Dorthea Puente trial here in Sacramento several years ago.
Doc
Senior Master
kelly keltner said:
Oh I see. You simply don't get it do you? Pertinent to whom? You see I have this life and ...
It’s like the line by Tommy Lee Jones in the movie the Fugitive. Harrison Ford says, “I didn’t kill my wife.” To which Tommy Lee replies, “I don’t care.” What’s important to some is immaterial to others. These people are in your lineage, so it’s important you justify it.
You may not beleive this but I do not feel I will have some kind of epiphany from talking to Bruce or anyone else. You “worship” the "quiet spoken" "easy to talk to" Bruce, I don’t. He himself has already said he had no physical contact with mitose so what’s the point? I’d be more interested in what you know and how you translate what you say you learned.
Yet here we are still talking about things you have no personal knowledge of, and you choose to accept them. Somebody said that somebody said they were there. Fine! I look at things differently, and like my teacher, simply don’t care. My credibility rests with my knowledge and skills, not with Parker or anyone else. I am one of his black belts, but that doesn’t make me knowledgeable, honorable, or skillful. That has to come from me. There are lots of “bad” black belts under everybody’s tree and the history in my opinion is most important to those who need it for reasons of their own. I don’t. Funny how nobody asks about the history of all the asskickers. I guess when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter unless perhaps you need the history to prove how good you are. When you stand in front of me you either think I know what I’m doing or you don’t.
My favorite vendor is coming and I want a burrito.
Last seeya on this topic.
Golden Dragon - Wassup witdat dog?
kelly keltner
Black Belt
Once again I see the word "worship" and "deify" and once again I don't agree.
I have never proclaimed Mr. Juchnik or Mitose as the living embodiment of god. I have never prayed to either of them, nor begged forgiveness of sin from them. I have never justified or endorsed criminal activity on Mitose's part. Once again you tell me I am basicly doing the telephone game. Once again I have given you an oppurtunity to access information from people who were there, not my interpretation, but in there own words. Plus forensic reports, and prison documentation. Once again you said no. I am not asking you to have an epiphany or an enlightenment. What I am saying is there is information out there available. Everytime I present the offer I get shot down. That's ok but if you are going to give a reason. Give a better one than hearsay or the telephone game or I don't care. Especially since some of the people in the video's are your friends, and friends of Mr. Juchnik as well. I happened to talk to Hanshi Juchnik this morning he would like to extend an invitation to his gathering in Portland, Oregon this Fall. I also asked him about "Al Reyes's" tournament In Hawaii. He stated he never competed in that tournament, and when he did compete in tournaments he only did kumite. Since this constitutes hearsay on my part why don't you give him a call.
kelly
P.S. If I ever get the privilege of meeting you. I'll buy lunch.
I have never proclaimed Mr. Juchnik or Mitose as the living embodiment of god. I have never prayed to either of them, nor begged forgiveness of sin from them. I have never justified or endorsed criminal activity on Mitose's part. Once again you tell me I am basicly doing the telephone game. Once again I have given you an oppurtunity to access information from people who were there, not my interpretation, but in there own words. Plus forensic reports, and prison documentation. Once again you said no. I am not asking you to have an epiphany or an enlightenment. What I am saying is there is information out there available. Everytime I present the offer I get shot down. That's ok but if you are going to give a reason. Give a better one than hearsay or the telephone game or I don't care. Especially since some of the people in the video's are your friends, and friends of Mr. Juchnik as well. I happened to talk to Hanshi Juchnik this morning he would like to extend an invitation to his gathering in Portland, Oregon this Fall. I also asked him about "Al Reyes's" tournament In Hawaii. He stated he never competed in that tournament, and when he did compete in tournaments he only did kumite. Since this constitutes hearsay on my part why don't you give him a call.
kelly
P.S. If I ever get the privilege of meeting you. I'll buy lunch.
R
RCastillo
Guest
To all viewing this thread;Just remember, a simple question was asked, and then this person on this thread said,"This person sucks, and this person sucks."
That's how people speak in High School, so annoying, and so illogoical. Ask Bill Cosby, he says the same thing, twice!
And this is coming from educated people?
Very sad.
That's how people speak in High School, so annoying, and so illogoical. Ask Bill Cosby, he says the same thing, twice!
And this is coming from educated people?
Very sad.
Kempojujutsu
Master Black Belt
All I know is the kata Naihanchi Shodan that Bruce shows on the tape is minor looking compared to what Seiyu Oyata does. If he learn it from Mitose, then it didn't come from Motobu or he modified it.
Doc
Senior Master
Doc said:
You know I just remembered. Charles Gonzalez was with me. For those who don't know, Charlie was Parker's lithographer and owned Castle Litho, and printed all of Parker's books and materials in the 70's and 80's. We had a ball on the Big Island. Especially at the tournament.
Doc
Senior Master
RCastillo said:
Actually sir, I only said he "sucked" once, and although I have a substantial educational background, this in no way should proclude me from expressing my opinion, of what to me, was an awful performance I witnessed first hand. The term may "annoy" you but it is not "illogical." It is a simple coloquial expression that left no doubt in anyone's mind of my impression of what I witnessed.
I could have easily launched a long winded dissertation examining the many negatives of the performance, however I calculated that no matter how I chose to say it, the response would ultimately be the same, so I chose to be one-word succinct and direct. There is really no nice way to say a person was really, really, really, awful.
I too find it "very sad," that of all the things the were brought forth in the discussion that could have fostered real and interesting dialog if you really had chose to participate, you instead fixated on a one word description that was neither profane, nor did it cast aspersions on the gentlemen's character, as you attempted to do of me.
This is not unsual from some of those deeply entrenched in the Mitose/Tracy myths. Perhaps that is the seed of your original discontent once that was brought forth. Either way it is really only a minor disagreement in my mind, but at least I was there.
You may not find my opinion valid but perhaps if you had been there, you would agree with me. I think I'm being reasonable, but you may not. Perhaps we can come together on another topic, if you choose to contribute instead of criticize verbage.
I will not however temper the way I communicate to suit your sensibilities. However, either way you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but I stand by my assertion as appropriate, and unfortunately supremely accurate.
After reading all the posts in this thread I realized two thing.
1. I will never get those 20 minutes back, and they could have been used for training or somethig else constructive.
2. This topic will always be heated since as human beings we are all emotional creatures. some of us more so than others.
1. I will never get those 20 minutes back, and they could have been used for training or somethig else constructive.
2. This topic will always be heated since as human beings we are all emotional creatures. some of us more so than others.
kelly keltner
Black Belt
Doc said:
Great we have a all you can eat here in Elk Grove called the giant panda friday night is seafood night you can eat all the lobster tails you can handle at the buffet 20 bucks, man it's great.
By the way Bruce said he wasn't there. You really ought to call.
kell
kelly keltner
Black Belt
I have a Quick question to anyone who reads this. There is a rank listing underneath my name when I post. It just went from white belt to yellow belt. What's the deal? As you post more on the board it changes? I think it's a neat deal. What are the rules on how it works.
kell kell
kell kell
kelly keltner
Black Belt
You are so right in so many waysRob Broad said:
kk
R
RCastillo
Guest
Doc said:
No Sir, you said it twice, about 2 people.
We know all too well about your background, and no one is procluding you from saying what you want. The term used makes, no sense. Used enough, it becomes vulgar.
Yes, you can say it nicely, by saying you didn't like it. That we can go on.
Why would I participate, when we long already know your feelings on the subject. Now you're getting after me because I won't enter a discussion that's academic? I also don't have to enter asperations on character, you already do that well on your own.
I don't care about the lineage issue, and no "seed" of discontent is there on my part.(Nice try) I wasn't there, you were, and I said it several postings earlier.
We all know you're valid, but where are you coming from with that ??? At least my verbage isn't like yours. Yes, you can be reasonable, we know that as well.
I'd never ask anything of you, what for? You're not gonna suit anyone, anyways. You're gonna say what you want, and it's still over done, and vulger.
You 're more than entitled to your opinion, but that's not the issue you're addressing here from my previous post. It's all about semantics, isn't it?
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
Doc:Doc said:
I don't know that the buffet was all that great. The company was awesome, but the MSG hand-swelling and tummy ache were profound.
As for GAB, Keltner (sp?) etc...My limited experience with Mr. Juchnik is that he has a vested interest in painting himself in the best possible ongoing light at any given point in time. My experience with Doc has been quite the opposite: what you see is what you get, and if you don't like it, go ahead and slink back to the comfortable ignorance in which you find your bliss, and train there till the sun burns out. Unopen minds are incapable of assimilating new information, and are useless to instructors of Docs caliber.
Doc, if you're unfortunate enough to not know (as he is unlikely to toot his own horn except in cryptic inferences) is one of the maybe half-dozen kenpo seniors with any degree of internally consistent integrity, and -- to date -- the only one I know of to maintain his commitment to Mr. Parker by remaining active with the Family, and supporting them in thier own struggles. Having seen Mr. Juchnik in person and on tape, I would be glad to venture that Mr. Chapel has a much deeper, more profound understanding of the intricacies of kenpo/kempo done well then folks such as Juchnik will ever grasp until they meet with him. Mr. Chapel does not seek recognition, wealth, or fame throgh his teachings. In fact, one would be hard put to locate him on the web with videos, and the like. Mr. Juchnik, on the other hand, is everywhere (vested interest?)
I used to think Mr. Bruce had a corner on something quite valuable. Years pass, and now I believe him to be an opportunist attempting to translate his prison interviews into a claim of possession of the holy grail of kenpo. Trouble is, many of his yudansha look lost in motion, missing something in the translation. Likely because there wasn't much of substance to learn.
Considering that apples don't fall far from trees, Mr. Mitose's skills left many of EKP's students underwhelmed when he showed to train with them in Pasadena in the early days. Robert Perry recounted Mitose coming like a train, and very hard to stop or match on a straight frontal clash. Catch? Kenpo didn't fight toe to toe in straight lines...angle changes with counter-attacks to open targets, and these young american black belts were peppering him as he motored on by.
There were a few around in the day when Mitose was active, and few of them had anything constructive to say about him; very few compliments on his martial prowess. I think there is a need to mystify the memories and skills of those who have gone before, in order to feel better about the path we are on. Recently, people were scampering to pay respects to GM kuoha, because he deigned to address the froum on issues pertaining to Chow. I remained, still, underwhelmed for several reasons. First, every bit of footage or picture sequence I've seen of GM Kuoha of his daughter has demonstrated disconnected basics, seemingly delivered haphazardly and without prior planning for cumulative effect. Clean and hard, but unrelated. No "playing the accordion" I've come to appreciate from kenpo & kajukenbo. Second, I've heard from many sources who were there, that Chow was progresslively plagued by alzheimers type episodes with remaining residuals, progressivly worsening. At about the time Idi Amin was in the news, there were several people relating incidents of Chow wandering the beaches, stapling bottle caps to his gi and showing off his medals.
Are a convicted felon and mental health patient worthy of our undying mythical respect?
Juchnik perfoms Kempo with the addition of super-secret info he managed to glean from Mr. Mitose via a handful of conversations. If, in fact, GM Mitose had a sceptor of data to pass, it would have properly taken the better part of 15 years intense training, one on one, hours a day, several days a week. All to learn information that could not possibly be transferred without the feedback mechanism of human touch. Luxuries Mr. Juchnik did not have access to.
Parker was an inventor and innovator, as well. But at east that's how he comported himself...not as the rightful heir to the mighty chain belt in one-hung-low kung fu. I've said before, I'd rather own a Pitbull/Mastiff mix without AKC papers, then a toy poodle with proper pedigree. All kenpo pedigree is suspect, and likely crap. Some kenpo practitioners simply have abetter understanding of the mechanics of motion then others. Having seen and met both Doc and Bruce, I will choose Doc's unique and highly sophisticated (yet decietfully simple) approach to kenpo. And no, GAB, I am not a student of his. Yet. But if lucky, I will be. He is one of the few disciples of the old man I've ever seen who actually moves with the speed, authority and ownership the old man had. Note: It is not Juchnik I'm interested in training with.
I heard a story recently about a day Mitose's "son" (not necessarily his blood son) demoed at a tourney. All lined up to see, becaue this was supposed to be the purest remaining expression of the kenpo taught by the founder of our clans as the exist today. By more then one account, the room was silent not in awe, but in disbelief and dissapointment. How could a prime heir do so poorly? Of course, many rated his performance highly, since he was an heir-apparent. Few had the resolve to call what they saw, and were criticized for it. It appears not everyone is ready to admit the emporer has no clothes.
I, for one, can avoid Mr. Juchnik's teachings until in the fullness fo years and the due passage of time, it becomes my turn to slip from this mortal plate to the next. Only my opinion, but then again, isn't that all we ever have? Salvation rests in some of them being better informed than others.
Regards,
Dave
Doc
Senior Master
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
Not THAT one. My "private" one.
Wow that's weird. That's almost verbatim what happened when I met and judged him on Hawaii. There was a "buzz" in the crowd and the word quickly spread that "The masters son is going to do a demo." I asked Parker who they were talking about. Unphased he said, "They're talking about Bruce." I asked who he was because I had never heard of him. Parker said, "He's not really Mitose's son."
They then began to assemble a kata board for the demo. Al Reyes came over and asked Parker, who quickly declined and volunteered the services of his black belt standing next to him (me) instead. (Charlie Gonzalez wa sharing the company of a couple gorgeous local girls) I asked Parker, "What should I do?" He said, "You know what to do. Just judge his form." Well I sat down and when this guy began to move I couldn't believe what I was seeing. After all the hype, a knew "buzz" began to ripple through the crowd in low whispers magnified by the numbers sharing the same thought.
When it became time to score I had to decide whether to give him the "5" I ultimately did give him, or the "3" I really felt. He was just awful in every respect. Yes he "sucked" (that's 2) to put it mildly. I looked around and everyone of the other judges gave him a "10." When I raised the "5" there was a momentary gasp that slowly turned in to a murmur, and finally nervous gigles punctuated with a few laughs. When I got off the stage, I asked Parker if I had did the right thing. He laughed and said, "You did exactly what I knew you would do. Good job!"
That was the last time I saw Bruce. Later I saw Al Reyes in Long Beach when I was running the Internationals. Al Reyes came up to me and said, "Hey Ron, it took a lot of balls to do what you did in Hawaii judging Juchnik's kata. I said, "Not really." I didn't know who he was so there was no pressure. I just was honest. He said, "Well that's for sure."
Thanks for the kind words Dr. Dave C.
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