I understand why Mr. Parker wouldn't come under Mr. Juchnik, but I don't follow what he was "trying" to do in the eighties. Could you elaborate or redefine the incident?
Sean
Sean
Bruce Juchnik
- Thread starter Kempojujutsu
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Doc
Senior Master
It is well documented that Mitose was a career criminal who delved into extortion, (mostly of the elderly), rape and all manner of cons as he presented himself as a "holy man."
All of this long before he was convicted of murder on the mainland. Ed Parker disliked the man and refused to have anythng to do with him - business or otherwise, and stated so many times publicly.
Now you can debate about his martial arts skill if you like.
My vote is he sucked big time. Parker was more polite in public stating, "Mitose showed nothing, however Chow was impressive."
As for Bruce juchnick, I had the "honor" to judge him in forms at an Al Reyes tournament on the Big Island "back in the day."
He sucked too! Of course that is only my opinion but it is based on first hand experience having met both Mitose and Juchnik. So much for politically correct today.
All of this long before he was convicted of murder on the mainland. Ed Parker disliked the man and refused to have anythng to do with him - business or otherwise, and stated so many times publicly.
Now you can debate about his martial arts skill if you like.
My vote is he sucked big time. Parker was more polite in public stating, "Mitose showed nothing, however Chow was impressive."
As for Bruce juchnick, I had the "honor" to judge him in forms at an Al Reyes tournament on the Big Island "back in the day."
He sucked too! Of course that is only my opinion but it is based on first hand experience having met both Mitose and Juchnik. So much for politically correct today.
R
RCastillo
Guest
Goldendragon7 said:
Hey, I saw that hit you threw in on purpose. :whip:
R
RCastillo
Guest
Sorry?!? Ya'll not sorry it hurt anyones's feelings, so why say it?
It's not about feelings. It came out in court as fact, and if you saw it first hand, your eyes didn't lie to you.
Ya,vamonos, new worlds to conquer! :CTF:
It's not about feelings. It came out in court as fact, and if you saw it first hand, your eyes didn't lie to you.
Ya,vamonos, new worlds to conquer! :CTF:
kelly keltner
Black Belt
I would like to know how long ago back in the day was. In reference to the Al Reyes tournament. That would have to be pre 1977 I think. I'll ask Bruce about it he'll be back tonite or tommorow. I would have to say I strongly and vehemently disagree Bruce Juchnik does not suck. I cannot speak for 24+ years ago but today he is about as crisp and as sharp as it gets, and he knows 200 plus forms not counting repeats. Defining repeat as the same form done by diferent systems with slight or sometimes drastic changes. He can also tell you in many instances who made the changes and why.
By the way I have never defended Mitose on basis of the crime. Or his criminal background. There are many in the arts that could be picked apart on that basis. He is however an important link in the evolution of martial arts in America. Ed Parker created something great. Emparado helped create something great. Chow created something great. No matter what I think you think anyone thinks will change these facts. You cannot change the fact that Mitose started the ball rolling by hammering him. Just as I cannot defend him for his part in the crime, but what I can do is try to put all the martial arts in perspective and look at the big picture.
KELL
By the way I have never defended Mitose on basis of the crime. Or his criminal background. There are many in the arts that could be picked apart on that basis. He is however an important link in the evolution of martial arts in America. Ed Parker created something great. Emparado helped create something great. Chow created something great. No matter what I think you think anyone thinks will change these facts. You cannot change the fact that Mitose started the ball rolling by hammering him. Just as I cannot defend him for his part in the crime, but what I can do is try to put all the martial arts in perspective and look at the big picture.
KELL
GAB
3rd Black Belt
Hi, Doc, as far as I am concerned unless you sign your name to your post,
you are just another annon..To bad no good to stand and throw stones unless we know who you are..I can not even imagine Hanshi Bruce sucking at a form or Kata or Quan. I have known the man since 88..
Now as far as testimony goes and the court room procedures you sound about as informed as you do about Hanshi Bruce, o hide in the shadow dude.
I myself made my living with the LAPD and I can tell you what happens in a court of law in this day and age is a shame.. Just for one How about OJ..
There is more than just the transcript to play here and the story is not over, believe me.. Men Like Prof Joe Shuras and many others beside my self are on the path relentlesly.. we will see what comes out at some date and time.
I would love to see your forms Doc..But if you were there, and had the honor you are probably older then I am, and I am pretty much retired except for doing my own thing.. I still stay active and do Kali.. Persons who have been in the art as long as you say, don't generally come on to someone as well regarded in the circles Hanshi keeps as you have.. How many men were Killed in the Palomas area at the time of this creation??
Or after for that matter.. I am not sticking up for the Man Mitose, only for the man Hanshi Bruce..Put up or show some respect Doc!!! Regards, Gary A. Brewer
you are just another annon..To bad no good to stand and throw stones unless we know who you are..I can not even imagine Hanshi Bruce sucking at a form or Kata or Quan. I have known the man since 88..
Now as far as testimony goes and the court room procedures you sound about as informed as you do about Hanshi Bruce, o hide in the shadow dude.
I myself made my living with the LAPD and I can tell you what happens in a court of law in this day and age is a shame.. Just for one How about OJ..
There is more than just the transcript to play here and the story is not over, believe me.. Men Like Prof Joe Shuras and many others beside my self are on the path relentlesly.. we will see what comes out at some date and time.
I would love to see your forms Doc..But if you were there, and had the honor you are probably older then I am, and I am pretty much retired except for doing my own thing.. I still stay active and do Kali.. Persons who have been in the art as long as you say, don't generally come on to someone as well regarded in the circles Hanshi keeps as you have.. How many men were Killed in the Palomas area at the time of this creation??
Or after for that matter.. I am not sticking up for the Man Mitose, only for the man Hanshi Bruce..Put up or show some respect Doc!!! Regards, Gary A. Brewer
On the other hand you could just look at his profile, which has his real name listed and a link to his school and background. Your profile is quite empty by the way. Most of the regulars on this board know Doc by his handle so he doesn't have to sign most of his posts.
Lamont
kelly keltner
Black Belt
let me help you out. First the person you are talking about is Gary A. Brewer. Gary is a retired L.A.P.D. he worked foothill division and metro 114 hoorah!!!!
Gary spent his time in the USMC. He also was a student of John Leoning for a time. He also spent quite a bit of time on the mat with Bob koga. That would be the Bob Koga. The one who is/was responsible for defense training for LAPD and many other police agencies, but that was many years ago. Gary is currently studying more along the lines of Kali up here in Elk Grove Ca. Gary is also an avid history buff, having picked my tiny brain clean of martial facts on many occasion. Trust me once you have been picked clean by gary you need at least 72 hrs to recouperate but it's worth it he has assimilated and processed more M.A. info in the last 12 months than most do in a lifetime. Next question please.
kell
Gary spent his time in the USMC. He also was a student of John Leoning for a time. He also spent quite a bit of time on the mat with Bob koga. That would be the Bob Koga. The one who is/was responsible for defense training for LAPD and many other police agencies, but that was many years ago. Gary is currently studying more along the lines of Kali up here in Elk Grove Ca. Gary is also an avid history buff, having picked my tiny brain clean of martial facts on many occasion. Trust me once you have been picked clean by gary you need at least 72 hrs to recouperate but it's worth it he has assimilated and processed more M.A. info in the last 12 months than most do in a lifetime. Next question please.
kell
Doc
Senior Master
Somehow his standing as a "model prisoner" doesn't seem very relevant. As for the courtyard, while it is possible a "meeting" could have occurred once or twice against the rules of visitor contact, it would not be possible for this to happen on a regular basis so it is a moot point. According to Bruce himself stated publicly, "there was no physical contact.."
I've only stated my observations from facts as I know them that are well fairly documented in the legal system and the martial arts. If Gene or Rick have a different view, and my point of view disturbs them sufficiently, they may give me a call. Perhaps they may even tell you of my own credibility as a martial artist having shared company with myself and others on many occasions. Although it has been awhile since I've talked to them, we've shared seminars and demos together and I was with SGM Ralp Castro, Duke Moore, Tak Kubota, Ed Hamile, and Dr. Bernd Weiss the last time I saw them. Nice people for sure, but everybody has a view and some choose to worship at the alter of Mitose, but I do not for reasons that should seem obvious.
I can tell you categorically that Parker never tried to affiliate with anyone "in the eighties" as you state. However I can see how these stories might come about to justify ones positions and lineage much like the many aspersions cast by the Tracy's at Parker as well. Clearly you have your belief based on what people have told you, but at least my opinions and knowledge are first person and I will stick with them. Thanks for the exchange.
GAB
3rd Black Belt
Kell thanks I think???
Back to the profile on Doc, I read it and Ok?? Another epak. What is it with you guys as far as the Martial arts goes, you are late comers.. So big deal.
Gives you the right to run off at the mouth, educated, ok, if you say so.
Two sides to every story and then there is the truth, does that mean everyone is a lyer???I don't think so..
What you said about Hanshi is not correct..Period..I know the old opinion routine, everyone has one, like ***holes right, Ok we got by that one.
Have you seen the writings of Will Tracy? He was a friend of SGMEP, but he had a few things he likes to discuss about EP.. I think SGMEP was great,
but he could not do the kind of Katas Hanshi could do in his best day..
Does that mean he sucked??? Your words not mine, but no, just different men.
So lets talk date and time. Al Reyes died in 77, so did John Leoning.
Are you telling me you saw Hanshi in Hawaii before that time doing Katas??
With Al Reyes no less, lets see Hanshi was a Tracy man right, Sifu Al Reyes was a Kajukenbo man, like Thomas B. Mitose. Maybe you have them confused? (Hanshi and GM) I will ask Hanshi next time I get the chance, it will be Tuesday next..
We may disagree about Mitose, Emperado and Chow, Parker, Tracy and Juchnik, but it is out there and it is still not in.
I wish Nimer would say more, but why should he.. Nimer, Arabic for Panther, Hassan, Arabic for Assassin, some of the stories you will read also might be the gate keeper depends on what side you are on.
So Doc I am new at this board whats next??? Attack by your amigos like on kenpo net because we talk a different teacher.. Ok, go for it..I am sitting here waiting for your educated mouth..
Regards, Gary
Back to the profile on Doc, I read it and Ok?? Another epak. What is it with you guys as far as the Martial arts goes, you are late comers.. So big deal.
Gives you the right to run off at the mouth, educated, ok, if you say so.
Two sides to every story and then there is the truth, does that mean everyone is a lyer???I don't think so..
What you said about Hanshi is not correct..Period..I know the old opinion routine, everyone has one, like ***holes right, Ok we got by that one.
Have you seen the writings of Will Tracy? He was a friend of SGMEP, but he had a few things he likes to discuss about EP.. I think SGMEP was great,
but he could not do the kind of Katas Hanshi could do in his best day..
Does that mean he sucked??? Your words not mine, but no, just different men.
So lets talk date and time. Al Reyes died in 77, so did John Leoning.
Are you telling me you saw Hanshi in Hawaii before that time doing Katas??
With Al Reyes no less, lets see Hanshi was a Tracy man right, Sifu Al Reyes was a Kajukenbo man, like Thomas B. Mitose. Maybe you have them confused? (Hanshi and GM) I will ask Hanshi next time I get the chance, it will be Tuesday next..
We may disagree about Mitose, Emperado and Chow, Parker, Tracy and Juchnik, but it is out there and it is still not in.
I wish Nimer would say more, but why should he.. Nimer, Arabic for Panther, Hassan, Arabic for Assassin, some of the stories you will read also might be the gate keeper depends on what side you are on.
So Doc I am new at this board whats next??? Attack by your amigos like on kenpo net because we talk a different teacher.. Ok, go for it..I am sitting here waiting for your educated mouth..
Regards, Gary
R
RCastillo
Guest
kelly keltner said:
Whoa! Mr. Brewer , I knew it, has been on my trail! (Or in da shadows)
I seen him first at SanJoseKenpo, then Kenponet, and now here at MT. Also an LAPD man! :bow:
Must be on my best behavior here, or anywhere for that matter! :uhyeah:
kelly keltner
Black Belt
Justification of lineage is a tricky subject to say the least. There are those who have justified themselves with many types of stories. Let's start with the guy who talked to a mist in his back yard. how bout the guy who recieved visions from his long dead grandfather who taught him gung fu. How bout the guy who dreamed he talked to an ancient Japanese god. Yes let's then talk about the gut who got on a plane with a green or brown belt and disembarked a great grand pubah. Yeah doc let's talk about justfication of lineage. So first off my understanding is that in tradional Japanese arts one generally has to be a fourth or fifth dan to promote others to yudansha. That being the case how can any lineage out of Mitose's lineage in Hawaii be considered legitimate since all that was awarded were what is to be considered first degree black belts. Gee I guess if I were to be technical all the rank that ever came from those people is not legitimate. The only way to solve this problem therefore would be to cast doubt on Mitose's legitimacy itself. Which is exactly what is going on. Was Parker trying to align himself with the USKA. My sources say yes, you say no ok a disagreement so what. Since you were around at the time maybe you can help me with your Knoweldge and insight. Why did Trias a staunch traditionalist support Mr. Juchnik. Why did Thomas Young support Mr. Juchnik as head of Kosho. A Fact that is verifiable through a video tape interview. Why does Paul Yamaguchi support Mr. Juchnik. Why did B.F. Lau support Mr. Juchnik. If you would like I can put you in touch with Mr. Juchnik who you said sucks and you can discuss personally what he knows about any subject. All it takes is is a phone call. He is softspoken and easy to talk to. Just let me know and I'll hook you up. No animosity ,no anger, no hurt feelings I just would like you to talk to him. Oh to clear one last thing up my personal definintion of legitimacy is: its not who signed your papers its how you cultivate the seeds you plant. So in my book Parker ,Chow, Emparado, Ueshiba, and Shimabuku are all about as legit and traditional as you can get no matter what reasons they used to justify themselves. Whether they had a dream, saw a mist, talked to dead ancestors,got on a plane one rank and got off another. They all created something and made it grow, in that lies their greatness
kell
kell
Doc
Senior Master
GAB said:
Mr. Brewer, clearly it would appear you have some problems with epak, (as you put it), and the level of emotional hostility on this and other forums would appear to bare that out. In particular your negative reaction to Ed ParkerĀs son on another forum for apparently, from my perspective, no reason. I donĀt know what you mean by Āyou guysĀ but I may or may not be one of them of which you speak.
Mr. Brewer, I donĀt see where anyone has called anyone a Āliar.Ā It would appear you only allow for your own biased opinions to prevail without it becoming an emotional issue.
Well my opinion of Bruce was based on what I saw, and my interaction with him. Perhaps he has ĀgrownĀ since then, but my observations are still valid. Perhaps if I can allow that he may have grown since our last encounter, then perhaps you could do the same with regard to him being a lousy martial artist at the time. At least concede he was having a Ābad dayĀ perhaps?
Some Āfriend.Ā Yes I know Will, Al, and Jim and they too are entitled to their perspective, right or wrong. Mostly wrong in my opinion, but I do realize as well when and how they dropped their lineage from Parker and surreptitiously switched it to Mitose. That in itself speaks significantly of their perspectives.
At last common ground.
Well, that didnĀt last long. Once again you present your opinion. Of course I have no way of knowing if you ever saw Parker do forms, but even if you did, to compare what Bruce would do to Parker is akin to apples versus hand grenades. (You choose)
Parker had left the Japanese/Okinawan influence years ago, so it would be very difficult to compare the two. I also have to be honest and admit speaking of them in comparable terms is somewhat distasteful to me personally, but I understand your position as you state it.
Yes sir, those were my words and, based on my lack of Āpolitical correctness,Ā I expressed my opinion as emphatically as I could without being profane. But still it is only my opinion, and you are free to disregard it. IĀm sure what I say or do has no impact on you, your art, or your life of any significance.
I do not personally remember when anyone passed except for those close to me, so I will take judicial notice on your proclamation. However I am not confused. Besides it would have been logistically difficult to confuse Al Reyes with Bruce at his own tournament.
Common ground once again.
It is apparent Āit is still not inĀ for you sir, but as for me, this is a moot point of the highest degree. Clearly not in need of the emotional discharges emoting from your declarations. Taste great! Less filling! You are entitled to choose according to your own likes and dislikes and tastes. But at least mine are based on my personal first hand experiences, having met both Bruce and Mitose.
Perhaps you should borrow a clue from this gentleman who clearly does not desire to give this issue the level of emotional energy you have.
No sir. Instead I have for you some honest advice. This is MartialTalk. Here we have respectful, honest and open discussions. We do not always agree but we disagree with poise while expressing ourselves.
I for one have some significant disagreements with a great portion of the Ed Parker Kenpo Kommunity myself, but it has never hampered our ability to dialog on a civil level. I knew when I used the word ĀsuckedĀ that it might annoy someone however to say, Āhe was really, really, really, awful with horrible basic skills and a plethora of inconsistent mumbled unrecognizable movements,Ā IĀm sure would have sparked the same tirades. I chose the short form. I did not besmirch his character or suggest he was a criminal or that he beat his wife. I just said he sucked. I feel certain in his life there may be some who expressed themselves upon his behalf in much more succinct and derogatory terms. From my perspective, I was being kind.
As for your experiences on KenpoNet, from the little that I have read, it would appear you initiated the tone of the exchanges on that forum, and did yourself no favor for attacking the motives of Ed Parker.
Perhaps here at Martialtalk you would feel more comfortable in one of the many forums that lean more toward your interpretation of the arts and facts. Just a suggestion, and not meant to run you off.
At any rate on MartialTalk we have real moderators of substantial martial arts background and expertise in multiple disciplines. Rest assured that if you do not temper your tone, you will at least be given a warning, and at worse, you will be here no more.
I do however wish you peace sir for having protected and served our community on the front lines of chaos, and much success in your martial arts experiences.
Although I am still out there, I hope to leave it behind very soon as soon as I can "sale" at least one of my daughters so i can afford to retire.
kelly keltner
Black Belt
Doc said:
Doc
In regards to Rick or Gene You Could call them and ask all about what happened. If you wished you could also call Mr. Juchnik and ask to see the video taped interviews that they were both in with Mr. Juchnik regarding the era. Once again it starts with a meeting or a call that I can arrange for you.
Come on sir isn't it time to make the call.
kell
Doc
Senior Master
So what you're saying is they made videotapes talking about things that were told to them. I'm sorry but that is still what is called "hearsay." But what disturbs me the most is that somehow your assertion suggests that these gentlemens opinion somehow supersede, or would have more credibility to me than my own knowledge and experience.kelly keltner said:
As if somehow they could convince me based on what someone else told them rather than my own eyes. As far as I'm concerned they are just one step closer in the "telephone game" and have no more knowledge of the incidents in question than anyone else who was not there.
I would love to hear from old friends but not about an issue so unimportant to most as this. If you told me Ed Parker was an idiot, I would simply suggest you're mistaken. The man and what he was, for those who were close to him, speaks for itself. I do not need to in someway "prove" Ed Parkers worth and therefore vicariously sustain some validity for myself.
Ed Parker and his accomplishments are obvious. He is who he is and I who I am. We both stand on our own merits - or not, as men in the arts. The consensus is he was a great man and his detractors are few and self serving. If you believe otherwise move on, but raising your lineage to the level of some type of deity and than convincing others it should be important to them as it is to you is quite unnecessary.
It is fine to be firm in your convicctions, but make sure they are well founded on information you can verify for yourself other than hearsay. To do otherwise raises your position to that of having "faith." You should reserve that for religion, not martial arts. Accept, or not. Believe or not. I'm going to get some dinner and believe it or not this conversation wil leave my mind as quickly as the computer shuts down. Perhaps you should do the same. I suggest Chinese and continue to enjoy your martial arts experience, but there is no need to spread "your gospel."
kelly keltner
Black Belt
Wait a minute wait a minute. These two gentlemen lived through it they were there they visited mitose in prison did you sir? Are these interviews about something somebody told them or are they about what they saw. By the way sir how much of what you say comes from what Parker and is that gospel or is it faith. Once again is it not worth a phone call to the man who lived it. I make the offer one more time. I can arrange that for you.
kell
kell
kelly keltner
Black Belt
kelly keltner said:
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