Boys arrested for stick figure drawings

[Andrew Green]

It's sad... and I bet that a good percentage of the school systems could be arrested for silly little things.

Pictures are pictures, not crimes. Movie makers, nevelists, and other creators of fiction do far worse things all the time. Should they all be thrown in jail?

Kids have also been arrested for pointing paper holded into a "gun-like shape" at others, bringing nail clippers to school, etc.

Who's to blame? media would be my guess. But not Violent games/movies, Mariylin Manson and black eye liner. News media.

The stuff that tells us we should live in fear, not trust anyone and that everyone around us could burst into a killing spree like a disney character into a song at any given moment. The stuff that likes to place blame on anyone and everyone, causing anyone and everyone to hit the panic button to protect their own butts at every possible instance so as not to be the guy that had all the signs in front of him and did nothing.

I think our best solution is to ban news broadcasts and actually learn to trust people again.

 

[Ping898]

These kids probably need couseling at the minimum to find out why they drew these pics and fix the problem. The parents should be involved especially if the they are not the root of the problem.
But I also think there is something wrong with arresting a 10 year old kid at school and taking them away in handcuffs. Call the parents, bring them to school, then escort everyone go down the the station together, but I think based upon what has been reported now they did go a bit over the top.

 

[Tgace]

I would like to ask some questions based on that response.

1. If your crystal ball sees court-mandated counceling, why couldn't an intervention by the school have been sufficient? If that failed, I could see some judical action necessary.

2. People do have some odd TV inspired outlooks on the world. So what happens when the neighborhood kids want to play, but the parents find out one is a "felon", with "sociopathic tendencies"? is that kid going to get the normal interaction with other kids his/her age?

Well theres no absolutes in crystal ball gazing. its kind of hazy. But based on my experience...

1.
a. The parents dont think there is a "problem" and wont go along.
b. The school thinks the problem is serious enough that they want to avoid the liability of "not doing enough" so they call the police.
c. Tried it in the past, didnt work.
d.We dont know enough of the "history" here from that news clip to really pass judgement on anybody.

e. Last but not least "Victims desire". What does the victim, or in this case victims parents want/are pushing for? If little Johnny is writing KILL DIE on the bathroom wall thats one thing. If its "IM GONNA KILL BILLY" and billys parents are brought into the mix its another.....

2.
a. It looks like the parents broke this one to the news based on the last sentence. Otherwise I have seen very few juvenile stories like this that were "news worthy" or released to the press unless they were homocides or something. So the "stigma" thing is rarely a problem that Ive seen in situations like this unless the parents want to make it into one.
b. Who knows that these kids "were dragged out in cuffs"? That story had no details of that sort. For all we know the parents and kids could have been called to the station after schooland charged there...no additional info.
c. What happens when the parents find out through the school grapevine (PTO, kids stories, somebody knows a teacher, etc.) that the kid is in school counciling or CPS because he was making death threats? There are always going to be those issues.

 

[The Prof]

Good Evening,

Basically this is a judgment call. Yes there are a bunch of pros and cons. Who is right or who is wrong is really not the issue. It's one of those things that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Of course there is the "much bigger picture" to look at also. Either way it is a sad event for all concerned. It's not likely that anything will come out of the arrest in way of a criminal record. Usually everything is sealed or wiped clean. But you know, if it teaches the children a good and valuable lesson, it may have been worth it. Who knows!

Blessings,

Prof

Caver, I usually agree whole-heartedly with you, but not this time.

The drawing was quite specific (if the description is accurate). Look to Columbine for an example of 'boys being boys' and their behavior ignored until...

As to bringing in the police -- if it was your child being threatened, how would you feel? I don't know that I'd go the route of arresting them since they're only 10, but I'd sure want to put the fear of whomever into them so that they don't decide to take the *game* a step further.

 

[Kane]

OCALA, Florida (AP) -- Two boys were arrested for making pencil-and-crayon stick figure drawings depicting a 10-year-old classmate being stabbed and hung, police said. The children, charged with a felony, were taken from school in handcuffs.

The 9- and 10-year-old boys were arrested Monday and charged with making a written threat to kill or harm another person. They were also suspended from school.

One drawing showed the two boys standing on either side of the other boy and "holding knives pointed through" his body, according to a police report. The figures were identified by written names or initials.

Another drawing showed a stick figure hanging, tears falling from his eyes, with two other stick figures standing below him. Other pieces of scrap paper listed misspelled profanities and the initials of the boy who was allegedly threatened.

The boys' parents said they thought the children should be punished by the school and families, not the legal system.
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Where should the kids get punished? Are we beginning to go overboard these days with how quickly and severely we jump on kids who draw or write anything that could be deemed an attack on someone?

I cannot believe the police interfered like in this situation. It is not in their place to make such a decision. It shouldn't be the legal system's concern. If the school or the boy's parents had a problem with it then they should have interfered, not the law.


I really hope the US doesn't turn into a police state. Kinda reminds of the North Korean lady who was arrested for just singing a South Korean song.

 

[Flatlander]

I cannot believe the police interfered like in this situation. It is not in their place to make such a decision. It shouldn't be the legal system's concern. If the school or the boy's parents had a problem with it then they should have interfered, not the law.

Blaming the police here is inappropriate, in my opinion. The fact is, the police would not have become involved had someone not involved them. Once on the scene, they are acting in their capacity as outlined by the oath that they have taken. If they determine that a law has been broken, then it is their responsibility to act accordingly. Of course, officers will use their discretion when they deem it to be appropriate; apparently a judgement was made that taking the children out and laying charges was appropriate.

On to the larger issue, it seems to me that there should be no difference in how the law is applied with respect to adults or children. The law is the law. The only time wherein the age of the offender should be taken into consideration is in sentencing. So, the question becomes, had an adult drawn a violent image of the death of a coworker, what would be appropriate? Should charges be laid? I believe so. I think that it would be easy to demonstrate how this action could be interpreted in much the same fashion as the verbal equivalent, i.e., uttering threats. I think that if we each ask ourselves how we would view such an occurance, were we the subject of the image, we would all, for the most part, agree with that assessment.

I believe that the specific issue of parental responsibility regarding the actions of their children might make a good topic for a separate thread. :asian:

 

[Tgace]

Good post Dan. And right on target. A juvenile "arrest" goes into the family court system here. Not the Penal courts (unless were talking about A felonies). A juvenile "record" dosent really exist outside the family court system.

 

[Ping898]

So, the question becomes, had an adult drawn a violent image of the death of a coworker, what would be appropriate? Should charges be laid? I believe so. :asian:

When does it move from self expression to a threat though?
Such as (and I realize this isn't quite the same vein but best example I have at the moment) there are many places where suicide is illegal. I've got a ton of poetry I've written on commiting suicide. It is something I would never do, but writing about it keeps me mentally balanced and lets me express thoughts and feeling I have I have. And maybe if I couldn't write bad poetry about it I would draw it. I don't think I should be arrested for it.
At think at some point people need to be able express themselves on paper without fear of reprecusions. Now if they show it around or talk about committing the act they have on paper, then yeah something is wrong and something should be done.

 

[Tgace]

I cannot believe the police interfered like in this situation. It is not in their place to make such a decision. It shouldn't be the legal system's concern. If the school or the boy's parents had a problem with it then they should have interfered, not the law.


I really hope the US doesn't turn into a police state. Kinda reminds of the North Korean lady who was arrested for just singing a South Korean song.

How do you think the police found out about it?

 

[Adept]

Arresting these kids is one of the stupidest things I've heard of.

I partially agree with you. I think the need for this kind of action is outrageously stupid. Unfortunately, that need does exist. Lax or uncaring parents, overly PC sensitive schools, and a general lack of discipline in children these days means that when something like this occurs, you can't just call Mr and Mrs Jones, because they will just take little Johnny home, and buy him an ice-cream and a new video game on the way. They won't give him a smack and send him to his room like we used to get, they wont even sit down and try to talk through the issue to discover the underlying problems.

The parents expect the schools to take care of these problems, and the schools are unable to do it. So the police were called. It may very well have been the only suitable response. Sad, but there it is.

 

[OUMoose]

Blaming the police here is inappropriate, in my opinion. The fact is, the police would not have become involved had someone not involved them. Once on the scene, they are acting in their capacity as outlined by the oath that they have taken. If they determine that a law has been broken, then it is their responsibility to act accordingly. Of course, officers will use their discretion when they deem it to be appropriate; apparently a judgement was made that taking the children out and laying charges was appropriate.

I agree. Once the police were called, they did what they had to do. what I don't agree with was why they were called in the first place.

On to the larger issue, it seems to me that there should be no difference in how the law is applied with respect to adults or children. The law is the law. The only time wherein the age of the offender should be taken into consideration is in sentencing. So, the question becomes, had an adult drawn a violent image of the death of a coworker, what would be appropriate? Should charges be laid? I believe so. I think that it would be easy to demonstrate how this action could be interpreted in much the same fashion as the verbal equivalent, i.e., uttering threats. I think that if we each ask ourselves how we would view such an occurance, were we the subject of the image, we would all, for the most part, agree with that assessment.

Here, I disagree. Children can not be held liable like an adult unless it shows grievous premeditation becoming of someone much older. They don't have the reasoning skills that an adult has. Similar to holding someone that is legally below the limit for IQ.

just my 2 cents

 

[Tgace]

Its not about being "held liable". In 99.99% of juvenile "arrests" there is no sentencing per se (except in rare cases). Juvenile arrests are routed to Family Court systems (ever see Judge Amy?). Family Court is about getting the child help. Sometimes that includes removing from the parents and placing them in custody of some sort. Sometimes its mandated counceling. Was this necessary in this case? How much of this story do we truly "know" to be sure?

 

[Tgace]

Otherwise Flat is right. I was taught to look at juvenile arrests like you would if they were 2 adults in the same situation. Granted as a police officer you have to take the fact that you are dealing with children into account. I dont arrest to "Punish" thats not my job. I arrest when the law is broken and the court system deals with the rest. Would I have "arrested" these Kids? Depends. Theres not enough data here for me to decide.

 

[Andrew Green]

"not enough data"

True, we don't know everything.

But, there does seem to be a rather disturbing trend of school administrators calling police when children do... well... just about anything that could in some way be seen as a "warning sign" when in fact it is innocent enough.

A couple of first graders playing cops and robbers should not be cause for explusion and possible arrest. They are kids, they are playing, and like it or not kids play.

I would guess that everyone on this board has "played" fighting, probably considered different ways to cripple or kill a person, most of us probably got some weapons training.

Yet when a kid "plays" something violent he is thrown out of school, his parents called and he is arrested. How has it gotten to the point where people are so afraid of perfectly normal children that this is happening?

And yes, in any given case we don't know everything and perhaps are ignorant of some important piece of information. But it is not just one case, it is a bunch of them, and the numbers are growing faster.

We are all martial artists, we should understand that violent play is "ok" as long as it is recognised as "play" and never goes beyond that. We know that there is a time and a place for it, we know that some things are safe and others aren't. We know that violent play is a part of us, it is in our nature, but so are the rules of it.

Violent play is a part of us, and every other mammal on the planet. Every kid play fights, it is in our genes, it is instinct. BUT there are rules associated with it, knowing how far to go, how to keep it safe.

By going Zero Tolerance everywhere we loose that. Instead of children learning fair play, safe play, and the limits of what is safe they are forced to completely surpress something which is a part of them. Then one snaps, so we supress it further, then 2 more snap, so we supress it further and so on.

The more we supress it, the more affraid we become of them the more will snap. Kids can't be forced to completely supress "play" and at the same time expected to remain mentally stable.

As Martial Artists we should be concerened, cause it is only a matter of time before one snaps that studied martial arts, and next thing you know parents will be pulling kids and stop signing them up cause it will make them "violent".

 

[Tgace]

Who was expelled/arrested for playing "cops and robbers"?

 

[Marginal]

This is a serious topic. A few years ago on the last day of School here in Lake Worth Florida, a very much loved treacher was shot and killed by one of his students. As a Police Chaplain I was one of the first responders. I live a quarter mile from the school.

Had the student been drawing pictures of the planned crime? I'm not sure I see the direct connection there. On one hand you have a terrible act, the other hand, you have a cartoonesque, imaginary violence that may or may not indicate potential future intent for harm.

It was terrible, I will never forget the faces of the students, teachers and parents. Sadly, when things like this and the Colombine incident happen, lives are forever changed. And because of these things, even the slightest inkling of danger or potential danger has to be seriously addressed and swiftly dealt with.

To a point. There's a fine line between reaction and overreaction.

Yes, kids will be kids, but sometimes they will be murderers too. I believe that the appropriate action was taken by the authorities. If I were the principle, I would not allow them to return to my school under any circumstances.

Harsh, maybe yes. But I would rather be safe than sorry. The kind of behavior shown by those kids was not normal.

Since the news story doesn't really supply great amounts of detail, it's hard to say that for sure one way or another. Expressing anger is normal. Millions of kids the world over have likely thought about violence towards their classmates without any action being taken.

This is no different than suggesting that we start locking up everyone who writes angsty poetry in mental wards lest they kill themselves.

 

[MA-Caver]

One of the things I found during a search for relevant information for this discussion was here at this site. Accurate? I'm taking it for granted that it is. It's a not too lengthy read but it's too long to copy/paste here, as speaks specifically about the two boys, Eric and Dylan who committed the massacre at Columbine. I suggest reading it, as it's insightful to the psychological make up of both but primarily focuses on Eric Harris who was/is diagnosed as a pure psychopath. It gives a clearer definition of the term applied to him. It also provides a chilling account of exactly what would've happened if everything the boys planned out had come to frutition.
Basically the article defined him (Eric Harris) as a literal human time-bomb hidden from the rest of the world. An analysis of his journals and webpages spoken clearly of this ... disturbance.

Still making comparisons to these two extreme young men/boys(?) against other potentially violent kids, is, I think over doing it. The Columbine massacre was committed by teenagers, this particular thread is (supposed to be) speaking about pre-puberty boys.
I appreciate the points made that we don't know the whole story and accept that we are all speaking our opinions and speculations here on this thread. I still must insist that not all kids are potential Eric Harris' and Dylan Klebolds. Yet the fear is there. Fear for our children and children's children. Seems that this world is getting worse all the time with more hideous crimes being committed by children than ever before.
Again, I state and point a finger asking who's ultimately responsible? Yes, many children are hapless victims of their own parent's (or another adult's) abuse and perverse natures and family secrets continue to torture the child (internally) long after the crime has been done, their acting out is merely the pain within trying to express or even escape the shell without. Pat Benetar sang it best with her song "Hell Is For Children" Followed up nicely years later by Alanis Morissette's "Perfect".
That aside, what are we as society doing to help stop this vicious cycle of abuse, acting out and tragedy?
Many of us here as LEO's and MA instructors and others have a unique opportunity presented to us each time we interact with children. We can let these kids know that not everyone is a jerk. That there are people who honestly and appropriately love them. Though not all of us (here) are trained to spot tell-tale signs of abuse but we can certianly know when something is wrong with one of our (young) students. Finding out and breaking the cycle of secretcy of a child's abuse at home is one of the first steps to stopping the cycle of abuse. The sooner the better. Because until a child learns the necessary communication skills needed to voice their anguish and pain and frustration and anger that's buried deep inside ... we may well be reading (and sadly experiencing) more tragic events involving kids and their misplaced anger.

 

[Kane]

On to the larger issue, it seems to me that there should be no difference in how the law is applied with respect to adults or children. The law is the law. The only time wherein the age of the offender should be taken into consideration is in sentencing. So, the question becomes, had an adult drawn a violent image of the death of a coworker, what would be appropriate? Should charges be laid? I believe so.

No, it shouldn't be. That is our right to draw whatever we want. It is linked to feedom of speech and freedom of press. If the police wants they can pay more attention to the person who drew those images if they want but it should be against the law to arrest someone for drawing an image. I mean the image could mean anything. How do they know it is a threat picture. They could have been messing around instead.

 

[MA-Caver]

No, it shouldn't be. That is our right to draw whatever we want. It is linked to feedom of speech and freedom of press. If the police wants they can pay more attention to the person who drew those images if they want but it should be against the law to arrest someone for drawing an image. I mean the image could mean anything. How do they know it is a threat picture. They could have been messing around instead.

Well when the drawing is so graphic and there are names to each of the figures in the drawing it does show implications that there's more to it than just messing around. Either mind screwing the kid to scare him or just a misdirection of their anger towards him. Mebbe the kid snitched on the other two and got them into a lot of trouble and they're pissed at him. They want to beat his a-s-s and so they're telling him. We don't know.
But the police did have to treat it as a threatening letter however visual. The problem is IMO is bringing the police into it in the first place. It was an implied threat. I gotten those all the time and made a few myself during my school years. It's knowing if the kids were "for-real" or just very angry and they'll cool off in a few days. Hard to tell sometimes but nothing to jump to conclusions simply because it's happened elsewhere.
I'm not poo-poo-ing the possibility, just saying that unless the kids are showing other outward symptoms of psychotic behavior there's no need to get the alarms blaring and swat-teams on alert.

 

[loki09789]

Caver, I usually agree whole-heartedly with you, but not this time.

The drawing was quite specific (if the description is accurate). Look to Columbine for an example of 'boys being boys' and their behavior ignored until...

As to bringing in the police -- if it was your child being threatened, how would you feel? I don't know that I'd go the route of arresting them since they're only 10, but I'd sure want to put the fear of whomever into them so that they don't decide to take the *game* a step further.

What is the crime rate of the area? Is it a hotbed for gang violence/recruiting? What is the school record of the children involved? Have they done things in the past that this is would fit into a profile of escalating violent behavior?

There are so many things to consider that saying this is excessive or appropriate is hard to do.

I think, regardless of whether the response was excessive or not, the school had a responsibility to step in when they knew that these boys were acting this way and let them, and their community, know that this kind of behavior is not tolerable.