Boys arrested for stick figure drawings

[Ping898]

OCALA, Florida (AP) -- Two boys were arrested for making pencil-and-crayon stick figure drawings depicting a 10-year-old classmate being stabbed and hung, police said. The children, charged with a felony, were taken from school in handcuffs.

The 9- and 10-year-old boys were arrested Monday and charged with making a written threat to kill or harm another person. They were also suspended from school.

One drawing showed the two boys standing on either side of the other boy and "holding knives pointed through" his body, according to a police report. The figures were identified by written names or initials.

Another drawing showed a stick figure hanging, tears falling from his eyes, with two other stick figures standing below him. Other pieces of scrap paper listed misspelled profanities and the initials of the boy who was allegedly threatened.

The boys' parents said they thought the children should be punished by the school and families, not the legal system.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Where should the kids get punished? Are we beginning to go overboard these days with how quickly and severely we jump on kids who draw or write anything that could be deemed an attack on someone?

 

[Simon Curran]

OCALA, Florida (AP) -- Two boys were arrested for making pencil-and-crayon stick figure drawings depicting a 10-year-old classmate being stabbed and hung, police said. The children, charged with a felony, were taken from school in handcuffs.

The 9- and 10-year-old boys were arrested Monday and charged with making a written threat to kill or harm another person. They were also suspended from school.

One drawing showed the two boys standing on either side of the other boy and "holding knives pointed through" his body, according to a police report. The figures were identified by written names or initials.

Another drawing showed a stick figure hanging, tears falling from his eyes, with two other stick figures standing below him. Other pieces of scrap paper listed misspelled profanities and the initials of the boy who was allegedly threatened.

The boys' parents said they thought the children should be punished by the school and families, not the legal system.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Where should the kids get punished? Are we beginning to go overboard these days with how quickly and severely we jump on kids who draw or write anything that could be deemed an attack on someone?

I think, that taken in the particular context mentioned, the punishment was justified.

 

[MA-Caver]

OCALA, Florida (AP) -- Two boys were arrested for making pencil-and-crayon stick figure drawings depicting a 10-year-old classmate being stabbed and hung, police said. The children, charged with a felony, were taken from school in handcuffs.

The 9- and 10-year-old boys were arrested Monday and charged with making a written threat to kill or harm another person. They were also suspended from school.

One drawing showed the two boys standing on either side of the other boy and "holding knives pointed through" his body, according to a police report. The figures were identified by written names or initials.

Another drawing showed a stick figure hanging, tears falling from his eyes, with two other stick figures standing below him. Other pieces of scrap paper listed misspelled profanities and the initials of the boy who was allegedly threatened.

The boys' parents said they thought the children should be punished by the school and families, not the legal system.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Where should the kids get punished? Are we beginning to go overboard these days with how quickly and severely we jump on kids who draw or write anything that could be deemed an attack on someone?

IMO, children are the responsibility of the parents until they are of the legal age. In my father's day it was 21, today it's 18. Arresting these kids is one of the stupidest things I've heard of. Who the hell called the cops in the first place? Parents have the legal rights over their child, until the child commits a serious infraction of the law, actually killing another for example. Unless the child is a serious physical threat to another human being or to themselves then the responsibility of punishment/discipline belongs with the parents or with the temporary guardians (i.e. schools, day care, and in some cases baby-sitters), but even then the guardians have only as much authority over said child that the parents give them or consented to as per agreement when they send their child to a particular school, public or private.
If the parent fails to control/discipline their child then the child may fall under truantcy laws (where applicable).
I got in to trouble as a kid, once so bad that I accidently burnt down a barn full of hay. The sheriff was never even brought into the scene. Owners of the barn talked to my Dad and they were satisfied with my Dad's word that I would be punished. Yeah, my Dad definitely punished me and I had to work off the damages for two summers. Ah, the good ole' days.
I've had guys in class "psst. hey Ralph... gonna kick your a-s-s after class man!" , even had the threatening notes tossed at me via paper-airplane. Were those guys ever arrested? Hell no! Of the threats that I knew (as a kid) that were serious I took 'em to the teachers. They got a warning and I in turn got another threat for snitching. This lead to a mile run after school or a short but very speedy sprint to the bus, all the while thanking God that those jerks don't ride the same bus that I do.
In high-school I had guys threaten to kill me... reported them to the teachers and principals ... hmm, no cops. Just a hearty "leave that boy alone or you'll be suspended!"

Sigh, a day in the life.

Geez people take things way too seriously these days.

 

[The Prof]

This is a serious topic. A few years ago on the last day of School here in Lake Worth Florida, a very much loved treacher was shot and killed by one of his students. As a Police Chaplain I was one of the first responders. I live a quarter mile from the school.

It was terrible, I will never forget the faces of the students, teachers and parents. Sadly, when things like this and the Colombine incident happen, lives are forever changed. And because of these things, even the slightest inkling of danger or potential danger has to be seriously addressed and swiftly dealt with.

Yes, kids will be kids, but sometimes they will be murderers too. I believe that the appropriate action was taken by the authorities. If I were the principle, I would not allow them to return to my school under any circumstances.

Harsh, maybe yes. But I would rather be safe than sorry. The kind of behavior shown by those kids was not normal.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Caver, I usually agree whole-heartedly with you, but not this time.

The drawing was quite specific (if the description is accurate). Look to Columbine for an example of 'boys being boys' and their behavior ignored until...

As to bringing in the police -- if it was your child being threatened, how would you feel? I don't know that I'd go the route of arresting them since they're only 10, but I'd sure want to put the fear of whomever into them so that they don't decide to take the *game* a step further.

 

[BrandiJo]

I am glad the police were called, the pictures were graphic, and had names on them. If it were a child of mine i would be pushing for the police to be involved and the school to get the kid out of there. Like it was said befor with all the school shootings and trouble in them action needs to be taken and yeah sometimes it is calling the police over a picture but id rather have the police called in for a picture this week and aviod calling them next week when the kid comes back with a gun.

 

[oldnewbie]

I would like to think that this kind of thing could have been handled by the parents, but these days that would include a lawsuit against the school, the resource officer, and the school board.


We have a zero tolerance policy at the schools here in Florida.

It was mandated by the parents, PTA, Government, etc.
So now that we have it, we must deal with the results.

On a personal note, last year my 15 y/o son was taken to the assist principal, and the resource officer. He was overheard by a Teacher, disscussing a "bomb threat". By the time my wife and I arrived at the school, he was in tears from the questioning.
The fact of the matter was, he and another student were talking in the hallway, about how "stupid kids are calling in bomb threats all the time, and interrupting school". We had over 20 that year.

But because of the zero tolerance policy, he was "grilled" for 30 minutes, alone.

Had he been a real deviant, the Teacher would have been the hero.
In reality, she was a pain in my , well you know.


Did the school do wrong? Not according to the policy.
Was my son wrong? Nope, just talking with friends.
That's the results of having a policy

 

[OUMoose]

*cough*witchhunt*cough*

Did anyone ask the kids why they were drawing that? Was the target someone that "everyone" liked, therefore most likely putting down everyone else? Was he "cool", and the other kids didn't know how to relate to that? All I keep hearing is "well, if it were my kid as the target, I'd call the police and the national guard the president and blah blah blah blah". That's all fine and good, and more power to you. What's that going to get you, other than your face on TV, and probably more kids ostracized?

When I was in school, if you did something like that and the teacher found it, they'd call your parents (which ANY kid knows is a billion times worse than the cops), send you home for a couple days, and your parents would deal with it. Today, parents don't want to get their hands dirty doing silly things like "raising" their children. They'd rather let some lawmaker and MTV do it for them.

"But Moose, don't you remember what happened in Columbine???!" Yup, and I'm tired of hearing about it. Forgive me for sounding rude here, but why exactly was this such a big deal to people OTHER than those directly injured? I've heard of 10 school shootings that have happened since that didn't get NEARLY the "press time" that Columbine did. Why? Was it because of the pre-meditation? Perhaps. Was it because it was "cool" kids that got killed? Perhaps. Was it because people needed another reason to go after kids that they deemed "different" because they didn't dress, act, or more importantly, think like everyone else? Perhaps. If you go by the stereotype (excuse me... "Profile"), I would have been one of the shooters in high school ("outcast", dark clothes, dark music, access to firearms, "unstable personality", etc). So, why didn't I walk into my school with a 12 guage and start dropping shells into people? Because my PARENTS taught me right from wrong. The law didn't. Teachers didn't. PARENTS did.

Perhaps the cops should have shown up and carted their parents away in cuffs, and let some people at child services talk to the kids. Then again, I doubt that would even make the news, and we wouldn't have even had this conversation.

P.S. And MAC, didn't you read the memo about how we aren't supposed to agree on things?

 

[MA-Caver]

Caver, I usually agree whole-heartedly with you, but not this time.

The drawing was quite specific (if the description is accurate). Look to Columbine for an example of 'boys being boys' and their behavior ignored until...

As to bringing in the police -- if it was your child being threatened, how would you feel? I don't know that I'd go the route of arresting them since they're only 10, but I'd sure want to put the fear of whomever into them so that they don't decide to take the *game* a step further.

Yes right.. put the fear of God in to them... so who's gonna do it? When I was growing up I didn't have a fear of God. I did have the fear of DAD
who by his nature had the fear of God which prevented him from punishing me more severely had he not. But woe be my butt if I did something wrong that got on his bad side. Sooo, by and large I behaved.
Point is who is responsible? Who is Ultimately responsible for the children as they grow up?
For you reading this that have "grown kids" (say between 17-21 + yrs old). They're pretty good folk? Haven't gotten in trouble with the law (yet and hopefully never)? Got jobs and etc. etc. Whose idea was it for the kid to be a good person, and who was responsible for the kid turning out that way? Yours right? The parent of that fine soon-to be- upcoming outstanding citizen.
(NOT ANGRY TALK HERE!! ) You want to bring up the specteres of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, fine. Answer me this... who is (ultimately) responsible for those two boys breaking down and murdering their fellow students? The other kids who teased them and harassed them? Who did the boys have to turn to besides each other for consoling and caring ear? Who was supposed to be there for them when there's trouble at school? When they come home and shut themselves up in their rooms and play violent video games and listen to depressing music who was supposed to check on them, making sure everything is okay and not allowing a simple "I'm fine, mom/dad, everything is cool" go by casually?
I've had my share of tormentors at school(s) but at least, and I'm guess I'm one of the lucky ones ... or should I say my class-mates were the lucky ones??, because at least I had my parents, guidance counselor and teachers to talk to about it all.
It all starts in the home. It should ultimately finish at the home when the child is ready to "leave the nest" ready to face the world on it's own for the first time and be prepared enough to handle life on life's terms as well as it can. To leave with a (insert patriotic music here) sense of duty and responsibility to their fellow man that we're all here to help each other out and be good productive citizens.

It seems that the majority (... of course not you who are reading this personally ) of the people are refusing to take direct responsibility for their children. Oh it was the other kids in school, it was the heavy metal music they listened to, it was the DOOM 3 type games and violence on television and movies... and on and on and on. Well, umm, geez you just basically bought them their clothes, put food on the table and woke them up every morning to go to school and called it good huh? I mean what are they? Your children or boarders? ( ) Thankfully there are good parents out there. Sadly there aren't enough of you to go around. These two boys must be evidence of that huh?

Growing up is hard. One of the hardest things we all have to go through. Why is it hard? Probably to prepare us for when we're adults. To be capable of facing life's challenges; getting up to go to work everyday, paying the mortage, raising our family and so on. Who is supposed to be there to help us as we grow? I would hope it would be the parents and other adults who've been there. Yes, it's hard teaching our children to be good people. We're trying to make it through our own lives as it is. It's hard to find the time to make time for those kids when we gotta get up and go to work everyday and pay our mortage and feed our families and take care of our parents (who took care of us when we were little) and try to balance everything out. .... Making the time, re-arranging priorities so that our children, our future, the reasons that we're living will have the things they need to grow up happy and productive. One of the most important things is our love for them which means our time, energy and experience and wisdom.


IMO the parents of those two boys need to take the first steps in disciplining them and then the school and then watching them. If they continue then counseling (NOT DRUGS) to find the root of their problem. The drawings were not threats... they were cries for help! Didn't anyone consider that? There was so much anger and the kids were ignorant of the proper means of expressing that anger against their fellow student that drawing out their mad was the only way to express it. Or maybe they were just having a bit of malicous fun. We won't know and those kids sitting in juvie hall aren't going to get the help they need because they're sitting in jail.
Was there a history of these boys doing that kind of stuff? If so why didn't they get the help they needed? Why were Eric and Dylan denied the help that was there for them? Why didn't their parents listen for the clues?

 

[Melissa426]

Yes right.. put the fear of God in to them... so who's gonna future, the reasons that we're living will have the things they need to grow up happy and productive. One of the most important things is our love for them which means our time, energy and experience and wisdom.


IMO the parents of those two boys need to take the first steps in disciplining them and then the school and then watching them. If they continue then counseling (NOT DRUGS) to find the root of their problem. The drawings were not threats... they were cries for help!

A psychotherapist friend of mine told that in studies done on children who turn murderous that they all had of history of abuse, either physical or sexual.
Granted that the majority of abuse is at the hands of a family member or someone living in the household, Why do you thnk the parents are the best ones to handle this situation? They may be the the worst.
A kid in my high school stabbed his great aunt 78 times. During his trial, it was discovered that one of his older sisters had actually been beaten to death by the father, though it was attributed to a fall down the stairs.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[Tgace]

Unfortuneately, we obviously cant rely on Mom and Dad much anymore. Sad as that is. I would think the fact that the police were called in this situation indicates that there was more than ordinary "kid stuff" goin on here. People seem to think police involvement is only about jail time. Many times an arrest is a "good" thing because it results in court mandated counseling that the subject cant just leave when he gets tired/upset with it. If he/she does it could result in jail which is a handy hammer to have. With juveniles, there are a lot of options available once they are "in the system". Once again, in this case I think it depends on the circumstances. Was this overreaction or is there more??

 

[Tgace]

As to arresting the parents for this...who here wouldnt have landed their parents in jail for the stupid things they did. Parental responsibilty only goes so far. Without some evidence of neglect...kids do have minds of thier own. Ive met many "decent" parents (perfect, hardly but who is) whos children were just plain "bad". Could the parents take some responsibilty, yes. Were they "criminal"... no. Were many "bad" parents that I just couldnt do anything about? Yes..Thats what CPS is there for.

 

[Zepp]

It's a good thing I'm not in junior high school anymore. I would most likely be arrested for similiar things.

I made all kinds of violent drawing of stick figures, though I didn't actually put other people's names on them.

In 8th grade, myself and a couple friends were always discussing our plans to kill a bunch of people in our school and blow up the place. The plan involved .50 caliber machine guns, hand grenades, and a tactical nuclear warhead. Oh, and the mandatory katannas and other ninja weapons.

Honestly now, what kid hasn't fantasized about committing some kind of school-related violence. Considering that children don't actually ask to have an education forced on them, it's only natural to have some resentment about being in school, and toward others in there with them. Getting these feelings out on paper has got to be healthier than trying to carry them through in real life.

Charging those kids with a felony?! Are they f****** serious?! Spain's juvenile crime system is actually starting to look a little better.

 

[OUMoose]

I would think the fact that the police were called in this situation indicates that there was more than ordinary "kid stuff" goin on here.

Or it indicates someone decided to hit the panic button for no good reason. You say we can't rely on mom and dad anymore. So then what? Feed them to a corrupt system that only proves to make the bad worse? (and if you'd like to discuss that, we can take that offline to private or start a new thread)

Wouldn't it be better to get to the root of the problem? If the parents are to blame, shouldn't child services step in and resolve that issue?

As to arresting the parents for this...who here wouldnt have landed their parents in jail for the stupid things they did. Parental responsibilty only goes so far. Without some evidence of neglect...kids do have minds of thier own. Ive met many "decent" parents (perfect, hardly but who is) whos children were just plain "bad". Could the parents take some responsibilty, yes. Were they "criminal"... no. Were many "bad" parents that I just couldnt do anything about? Yes..Thats what CPS is there for.

Parental Responsibilty extends to ALL facets of a child's life until they reach the age of maturity. Kids do have minds of their own, I agree, and that mind is very mallable during the formative years in question. All that the police did in this situation, by "getting them in the system", is make them more outcast, and most likely putting them with other kids who will foster their thoughts.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Most parents these days are responpsible for their children's behavior and upbringing. Those who aren't need help, as was pointed out.

Moose, as for being sick of hearing about Columbine, I think maybe you're taking a short view of a very long problem. Every kid -- every kid -- has someone pick on them at school at one time or another, I don't care how *popular* they are. Yes, growing up is hard. You don't have children yet (to my knowledge), so it may be difficult for you to grasp how very precious they are and how much time, thought, and energy goes into every little thing we do for them as parents. Maybe I'm the one who's guilty of taking a short view, but I didn't have children until I was so very sure I was prepared to be a parent and to devote 24/7 to their care and upbringing. That included Cubs, Little League, bowling league, class mommie, religious school, carpooling all over the world for them to see their friends, go to the library, go with us to concerts, art museums, the zoo, the aquarium, the movies, basketball, football, and baseball games and everywhere in between so that they could experience it all. No, neither of my children has ever been in legal trouble (unless you count speeding and parking tickets). In fact, they are very decent young men, if I say so myself.

My point? As a parent you try your level best to create decent, moral human beings. Sometimes you can't, no matter how hard you try. There's no disgrace in relying on professional help if you can't recognize the warning signs and something happens to open your eyes. Columbine was a horror for the parents and other family members of those who were killed -- and for the families of the perpetrators of that horror. No child should have to resort to violence to right perceived wrongs.

 

[OUMoose]

My point? As a parent you try your level best to create decent, moral human beings. Sometimes you can't, no matter how hard you try. There's no disgrace in relying on professional help if you can't recognize the warning signs and something happens to open your eyes. Columbine was a horror for the parents and other family members of those who were killed -- and for the families of the perpetrators of that horror. No child should have to resort to violence to right perceived wrongs.

That is my point exactly, and thank you for illustrating it so eloquently.

However, we aren't talking about high school age children in this instance. By that age, kids already have an idea of how the world works, and their place in it (albeit horribly skewed in some cases due to society, but that's another topic). In grade school, though? The "bad apple" mentality is unaccptable at that level. If these kids are bad apples, then they didn't fall far from the tree, and that's the root (forgive the pun) of the problem.

No, I don't have children yet. However I don't need them at the moment to see this situation with compassion. I grew up as the "outcast" and the "bad" kid, but turned out ok in the end because my parents instilled in me the sense of what to do and what not to do. So, I don't see it as a "short" view, I see it as a "realistic" view, because I was there.

 

[Tgace]

Perhaps I should have said "We cant rely on Mom and Dad in all situations anymore." As KT pointed out. By far more parents are doing fine than not. We always see the bad on the news and seldom the good. I think we are jumping to conclusions when we see these kids in some juvenile home being turned into hardened criminals or in prison wearing jumpsuits. My crystal ball sees court mandated counseling with mom and dad involved....criminal charges, felony or otherwise are only chages. People have some odd (TV inspired) mental pictures of what "the system" really is.

 

[Tgace]

Untill I see more, Im not concluding that this was an unwarranted "jumping the gun" or a "more to the story situation". Just from my experience, Ive never been called into a grade school unless there was "more". Had one child that was starting fires at home and stuck a child in the leg with a knife on the bus. Was put "into the system", mandated into counceling and the last time I spoke to the parents was doing much better. Without the mandate, "some" parents just let things drop off when "they think" things are better or when they dont like what they are hearing.....

As to the "bad apple" thing. Sometimes the tree isnt "bad" it just isnt paying attention or is more concerned with itself....not "criminal" but in need of something being done. Punishing the "tree" would be counterproductive.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I grew up as the "outcast" and the "bad" kid, but turned out ok in the end because my parents instilled in me the sense of what to do and what not to do. So, I don't see it as a "short" view, I see it as a "realistic" view, because I was there.

So you and I would've been friends. Go figure.:ultracool

 

[OUMoose]

Perhaps I should have said "We cant rely on Mom and Dad in all situations anymore." As KT pointed out. By far more parents are doing fine than not. We always see the bad on the news and seldom the good. I think we are jumping to conclusions when we see these kids in some juvenile home being turned into hardened criminals or in prison wearing jumpsuits. My crystal ball sees court mandated counseling with mom and dad involved....criminal charges, felony or otherwise are only chages. People have some odd (TV inspired) mental pictures of what "the system" really is.

I would like to ask some questions based on that response.

1. If your crystal ball sees court-mandated counceling, why couldn't an intervention by the school have been sufficient? If that failed, I could see some judical action necessary.

2. People do have some odd TV inspired outlooks on the world. So what happens when the neighborhood kids want to play, but the parents find out one is a "felon", with "sociopathic tendencies"? is that kid going to get the normal interaction with other kids his/her age?