Body method

[Alan0354]

I'll argue that the level of "snappiness" is part of the showiness of the form. It looks and sounds better that way. Power can be delivered with good form without it being that sharp, but it wouldn't look as good in demonstration and competition.

Doesn't sharpness demonstrate how explosive the move is from standing still to max speed? It's like car performance measured by 0 to 60, then from high speed braking back to 0. It takes a lot of power to go 0 to 60 under 3sec, and the shorter the stopping distance, the better the brakes are. It's like for about a 3500lbs car, you don't talk about 0 to 60 under 3 seconds unless you talk about 600+hp and AWD to have the power and traction to launch the car.

Of cause, that has nothing to do with how hard the girl punch on the heavy bag. This is a form competition, so I just look at the form punching in air.

 

[Alan0354]

It's the same principle. The technique that makes it happen is different. I was taught it through a focus on the hips. It sounds odd, but if you get the hip movement right, it tranforms into a drive from the leg, without having to shift the whole body forward (though you can also shift the whole body forward). It's a little bit related to the rotation that boxing uses, and a little bit related to the idea of the stepping punch you've talked about.

There is no use of the maximum compression/release as you see it - it's done in smaller, more compact segments, instead. So you get a lot of compaction/release in a smaller movement, and it's more of a chain of compression (not everything moves at once/stops at once). It has its advantages and disadvantages compared to the type of body method you've described (as far as I understand it).

I agree.

Further more, I think the timing of each movement is very important, it's like to get max power, every body part has to converge to one point on the target and the same point of time. I think that is the principle of Chinkuchi of Okinawa karate. (not the only one, everyone express in different ways) to me, this is very basic and should be taught from day one. It just take a long time to perfect it.

With the perfect timing, you really don't have to have a lot of body movement. Don't you ever feel sometimes, when everything is right, you don't even have to try punching very hard, and you can hear and feel the force and penetration of the punch into the bag?

There are different ways, there is NO one best way. Also, it depends on the body of the person, some can use the hip better, some cannot. Forcing the person to use the hip is not going to help or criticizing the person not using the hip is just wrong. This is individual, the point is to understand of using the whole body to throw the punch to add all the forces together into one point and same time is the most important thing.

​

 

[Flying Crane]

There's a vast distance between it being the pinnacle and it lacking basic principles.

This is true. Alan seems to be putting it on a pinnacle.

 

[J. Pickard]

It's the same principle. The technique that makes it happen is different. I was taught it through a focus on the hips. It sounds odd, but if you get the hip movement right, it tranforms into a drive from the leg, without having to shift the whole body forward (though you can also shift the whole body forward). It's a little bit related to the rotation that boxing uses, and a little bit related to the idea of the stepping punch you've talked about.

There is no use of the maximum compression/release as you see it - it's done in smaller, more compact segments, instead. So you get a lot of compaction/release in a smaller movement, and it's more of a chain of compression (not everything moves at once/stops at once). It has its advantages and disadvantages compared to the type of body method you've described (as far as I understand it).

I think it's the same principal just on a smaller, more subtle scale. The power comes from the ground but linking that power to a forward directional strike or kick comes from rotation in the hips and shoulders mostly. I would imagine the better you are at creating this link the smaller the moves are required to do it effectively.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Doesn't sharpness demonstrate how explosive the move is from standing still to max speed? It's like car performance measured by 0 to 60, then from high speed braking back to 0. It takes a lot of power to go 0 to 60 under 3sec, and the shorter the stopping distance, the better the brakes are. It's like for about a 3500lbs car, you don't talk about 0 to 60 under 3 seconds unless you talk about 600+hp and AWD to have the power and traction to launch the car.

Of cause, that has nothing to do with how hard the girl punch on the heavy bag. This is a form competition, so I just look at the form punching in air.

A part of the snappiness we perceive has to do with the precision of the stop, and how much the punch affects the uniform. It correlates with power, but isn’t quite the same. I can make a snappy punch that would be demonstrably weak if you saw it hit a bag. I can also make a punch that doesn’t look as crisp, but carries a lot of power.

But, yes, there is a link between them, and someone with no “snap” in their form in Karate likely has less power than her.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree.

Further more, I think the timing of each movement is very important, it's like to get max power, every body part has to converge to one point on the target and the same point of time. I think that is the principle of Chinkuchi of Okinawa karate. (not the only one, everyone express in different ways) to me, this is very basic and should be taught from day one. It just take a long time to perfect it.

With the perfect timing, you really don't have to have a lot of body movement. Don't you ever feel sometimes, when everything is right, you don't even have to try punching very hard, and you can hear and feel the force and penetration of the punch into the bag?

There are different ways, there is NO one best way. Also, it depends on the body of the person, some can use the hip better, some cannot. Forcing the person to use the hip is not going to help or criticizing the person not using the hip is just wrong. This is individual, the point is to understand of using the whole body to throw the punch to add all the forces together into one point and same time is the most important thing.

​

I’m not a fantastic puncher, and didn’t spend enough time practicing on a bag over the years (likely those two phrases are related), so I rarely feel like the power is effortless. Precision is easy for me when I’m active (haven’t been training consistently lately), but power is always something I’ve had to produce purposely. That’s part of the reason I made it more of a focus for my students than my instructors did for me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That, as far as I can tell, is just a motion for relaxation and gathering focus - not a strike of any kind, so no need for the body to move with it. There may be more to that movement, but it's certainly not any kind of strike or block in that example of the form.

Whether a non-MA move should exist in a form or not is debatable.

IMO, it can be a separate hands that you separate your opponents arms away from his head. You then control his arms, or control his head. The striking game ends and the wrestling game starts.

A part of the snappiness we perceive has to do with the precision of the stop,

When you stab your dagger into your opponent's chest, do you "snap" it back, or do you send your dagger into your opponent's chest as far as you can?

In long fist system training, we don't snap back our punches.

 

[Alan0354]

This is true. Alan seems to be putting it on a pinnacle.

Only on the few videos I've seen in this thread, I have not seen enough different people to put her on the pedestal. Don't you agree, the few that Kung Fu Wong linked before were like going through the motion only? That was pretty weak. Talk all people want, you want to talk hard punches, show and tell. Don't lecture about missing this and that and criticizing people on missing something. If someone hit hard like the ones I linked, I would respect it. One punch speeds a 1000 words.

AND also again, this is Olympics, You have to do a lot of convincing for me to believe that the judges don't know what they are looking for and it's all for show. Again, this is Olympics, about the MOST PRESTIGE in sporting events. I trust they hire the right judges to judge.

 

[Alan0354]

I’m not a fantastic puncher, and didn’t spend enough time practicing on a bag over the years (likely those two phrases are related), so I rarely feel like the power is effortless. Precision is easy for me when I’m active (haven’t been training consistently lately), but power is always something I’ve had to produce purposely. That’s part of the reason I made it more of a focus for my students than my instructors did for me.

I am one of those that love punching bags. when I was training, I went there 3 hours before class and work on the heavy bag all by myself. I know I am slow and missing a lot, but I did a lot of bag work. Too bad we all have to get old and slow down. I wish I can be younger where I punch much faster. But looking back on my own video, I definitely not a good puncher, but I don't think there is anything to laugh at. Could be a lot better, but could be a whole lot worst.

There is no ONE WAY to punch, everyone try to do their best. I don't care whether the person only use their arms to punch or use the whole body. Give me a good punch, I'll respect that, I sure won't criticize the person missing this or that. Just keep practice and practice.

 

[Flying Crane]

AND also again, this is Olympics, You have to do a lot of convincing for me to believe that the judges don't know what they are looking for and it's all for show. Again, this is Olympics, about the MOST PRESTIGE in sporting events. I trust they hire the right judges to judge.

See? Putting it on a pedestal.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Whether a non-MA move should exist in a form or not is debatable.

IMO, it can be a separate hands that you separate your opponents arms away from his head. You then control his arms, or control his head. The striking game ends and the wrestling game starts.

The arm movement could be used for that. I don't see that in the form, though, since there's nothing in the rest of the body to suggest it. Remember that Karate is taught as a "-do", so there is intentionally more than just the fighting method in it. Beyond that, though, relaxation (and tension) is an important part of most technique, so this may be developed within the forms, as well. I'm not sure what the intention in that movement is - I just speak to what I see in it.

When you stab your dagger into your opponent's chest, do you "snap" it back, or do you send your dagger into your opponent's chest as far as you can?

In long fist system training, we don't snap back our punches.

That's what I meant about it being partly for show. I think there's also some of the "-do" in that - the precision is part of the point of the training and development of the individual.

I think this is an important aspect. I teach with a self-defense orientation. But I deliberately focus on some development that is at best tangential to that, since most students will rarely (if ever) need the combat skill. I want them to have some development they are fairly guaranteed to use on a regular basis. So some things in my training are specifically designed to improve balance for long-term, non-combat use, for instance.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am one of those that love punching bags. when I was training, I went there 3 hours before class and work on the heavy bag all by myself. I know I am slow and missing a lot, but I did a lot of bag work. Too bad we all have to get old and slow down. I wish I can be younger where I punch much faster. But looking back on my own video, I definitely not a good puncher, but I don't think there is anything to laugh at. Could be a lot better, but could be a whole lot worst.

There is no ONE WAY to punch, everyone try to do their best. I don't care whether the person only use their arms to punch or use the whole body. Give me a good punch, I'll respect that, I sure won't criticize the person missing this or that. Just keep practice and practice.

At the school where I did most of my training, the only heavy bag was in a corner of the training space only accessible to those in class (you'd be in the way if you used it while they were training). Most of my heavy bag work has been on my own at a gym, and most of it after many years of training. It was a shortcoming in my development. My students learn to strike a heavy bag as soon as they have something approaching reasonable form (most folks, in the same class they learn a given strike). I think practicing with reasonable form on a heavy bag accelerates development versus not having a target you can safely hit with some force. More feedback, and you get to use the energy the way you would in an actual fight.

 

[Alan0354]

See? Putting it on a pedestal.

Yes, about the Olympics, it's the most prestige event for sports, it is the standard where other events are judged and measured. You disagree?

That said, I do judge myself. I looked at other competitors, I particularly looked at TKD form contest in Olympics, I don't even like that. I did choose her clip to express what I want to say here.

 

[Alan0354]

At the school where I did most of my training, the only heavy bag was in a corner of the training space only accessible to those in class (you'd be in the way if you used it while they were training). Most of my heavy bag work has been on my own at a gym, and most of it after many years of training. It was a shortcoming in my development. My students learn to strike a heavy bag as soon as they have something approaching reasonable form (most folks, in the same class they learn a given strike). I think practicing with reasonable form on a heavy bag accelerates development versus not having a target you can safely hit with some force. More feedback, and you get to use the energy the way you would in an actual fight.

I chose my school based on they concentrate hitting a real target. In every class, we took turn holding a heavy cushion and let the partner kick and punch as exercise. It just happened that the heavy bag was set up in another room far from the class, I couldn't hear them and they couldn't hear me punching and kicking.

I actually feel I am at the other end opposite from you, I spent so much time of bag my punches and kicks are slower. Lately, I have been doing sets of punching and kicking combination in air to gain the speed and I feel I am a little faster. Punching bag make me stronger, but I need punching and kicking air to get the speed. So it's not all bad not punching bag enough.

I definitely notice I don't get the snap and the sound of the sleeves just by punching bags, it has to be practicing in air to get the snap. I am doing it half and half now a days and has been doing this for like 4 months.

I am not working that hard now a days, I have to be careful of my back. Back injury was the reason I quit training in the 80s, I am surprised I can come back so far by doing weight training to tame the back pain. I just take it a day at a time. Between this, stick fight and weight training, I am putting in 7 hours a week, it's exhausting. There's nothing good get old other than 6ft under.

 

[Alan0354]

I believe this is a very basic knowledge that most MA schools teach their students. The most well known exception maybe Wing Chun.

AGREE. The body motion is so basic, we learn about the first day of class. It's the implementation that is different from style to style. Not that one is better than the other, just different implementation. I don't like to talk about who is better and who's worst, just follow what is comfortable and suitable for you.

I know WC has minimal shoulder movement. But they have people that can punch hard too. I learn a little WC back in the days, they put emphasis on using the wrist to kind of nudging motion to punch with the last two knuckles. Personally, I think WC put too much limitation on itself, like the hand movement has to start from the center line. It's like you can put a hoop around the two elbows and they can punch and do everything through the hoop!!! Why put limits at all.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, about the Olympics, it's the most prestige event for sports, it is the standard where other events are judged and measured. You disagree?

Yes, I disagree. Olympic karate is no more the pinnacle of karate than Modern Wushu is the pinnacle of kung fu. Amazing athletes? Yup. Outstanding performers? You betcha. Pinnacle of martial arts? Not automatically. That is a different set of parameters.

That said, I do judge myself. I looked at other competitors, I particularly looked at TKD form contest in Olympics, I don't even like that. I did choose her clip to express what I want to say here.

Well, for what it’s worth, I am not impressed with Olympic TKD either. Once again, amazing athletes and very skilled to compete within a specific skillset. But that does not make them the pinnacle of martial arts.

 

[Alan0354]

Yes, I disagree. Olympic karate is no more the pinnacle of karate than Modern Wushu is the pinnacle of kung fu. Amazing athletes? Yup. Outstanding performers? You betcha. Pinnacle of martial arts? Not automatically. That is a different set of parameters.


Well, for what it’s worth, I am not impressed with Olympic TKD either. Once again, amazing athletes and very skilled to compete within a specific skillset. But that does not make them the pinnacle of martial arts.

I guess you think you are more qualify than the judges in Olympics.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I guess you think you are more qualify than the judges in Olympics.

How do you know flying crane does not have more

- MA training,
- MA form judging experience,

than those Olympics judges have?

 

[Flying Crane]

I guess you think you are more qualify than the judges in Olympics.

Please point out where I ever suggested that? I merely recognize sport karate for what it is. It is a different set of parameters.

 

[drop bear]

Like I said, I trust the Olympic judges a whole lot more. This is Olympics for cry out loud. How big can this get? I don't care about aesthetically pleasing, I look at how fast she can go from stand still and snap the punch and kicks. I overlook that part she stop, then one quick move, stop and another move and all that. I look at how explosive each move to look for power and speed.

Like I said, it's so easy to armchair quarterbacking. Like it's funny after Bruce Lee died, everyone came out and said they can beat him. Where are they when Lee was alive? Why didn't they say it to Lee's face when he was alive. One thing I don't respect is armchair quaterbacking. Don't agree, go show it, prove them wrong. Like I said multiple times, don't think MMA is good, have the guts to go into the ring and prove you are superior. Prove them wrong.

I think people expecting too much from kata.

I am not sure how anyone could make that link from kata to power generation with any degree of certainty. Which is why not even alleged experts like Olympic judges could really tell if someone has power in their technique

If you want to generate power you would need to use evidence based methods like combat sports or actually hitting things to determine if the methods of power generation actually generate power.

As you said. They would need to test that to make a case for it.

The problem you will have in this discussion is the belief that not all martial arts need to provide evidence to support their claims. Which I tend to discount in favor of systems with more robust accountability