Body method

[Flying Crane]

So far, the only one comes close is this video that shows punching of different styles:

This is an interesting video. The kung fu method shown is Tibetan Hop Ga, which is a sister art to the Tibetan White Crane that I study. They both came from the same original root method and developed in their own way while retaining some common methodologies. I think the presentation was good, considering it was very brief. What I emphasize more than what was on this video is the way the feet and legs really drive that rotation, which was not really mentioned in the video. That gives the impression that the turning is initiated from the shoulders, and the feet are kind of dragged along behind. This bleeds away power and can put bad pressure on the knees. But again, this video was very brief and there wasn’t time to properly explain it.

The fact that the host tried to hit the bag using the method was unreasonable. The method needs a bit of training for a while to get comfortable with the mechanics before working on the bag. But he was making a video, so I get it. Unfortunate that the guest instructor didn’t really give the bag a go, to show what can be done with it.

I have always recognized that this Tibetan method seems strange to most people. However, that leg thing that the boxing guy did seemed very strange to me. I don’t know if his presentation was accurate according to other boxing coaches, but I found it very strange.

 

[Flying Crane]

IMO, this video is much more pleasant to watch than the one you provide.

The obvious problem is that the film is sped up, so we really don’t know what it looks like for real.

 

[Flying Crane]

I guess we are looking for different things, I am looking for speed and power.

I might be partial to boxing also, our school was TKD, but we really learn kick boxing strongly influenced by Bruce Lee(which a lot of kung fu guys still trash). It's all boxing hands and TKD kicks. We did not do forms at all until 2 weeks before belt test, then forget all about it afterwards.

If I knew better at the time, I would go with Muy Thai that has elbow and knees on top of boxing hands and kicks. Of cause, if I were young today, I would go with MMA, that's no brainer. That's the complete package, Muy Thai+BJJ and more.

We are all a product of our experiences, for better or for worse.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The obvious problem is that the film is sped up, so we really don’t know what it looks like for real.

It was not sped up. I recorded it on my 8 mm camera in 1973 Dallas Karate tournament. I then projected it on the wall and recorded by my video camera.

My students did the 2 men form in that tournament. Both clips should share the same speed. Can't believe both clips are 49 years ago.

 

[Flying Crane]

It was not sped up. I recorded it on my 8 mm camera in 1973 Dallas Karate tournament. I then projected it on the wall and recorded by my video camera.

My students did the 2 men form in that tournament. Both clips should share the same speed. Can't believe both clips are 49 years ago.

It may not have been deliberately sped up, but that is playing faster than normal movement. It isn’t a lot, but is enough to make it look odd.

 

[Alan0354]

It may not have been deliberately sped up, but that is playing faster than normal movement. It isn’t a lot, but is enough to make it look odd.

I think speed up is minimal(yes, it looks a little odd). But the more important thing is the moves are pre arranged or scripted. So it looks more unnatural to me than anything else. It's not a real sparring.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think speed up is minimal(yes, it looks a little odd). But the more important thing is the moves are pre arranged or scripted. So it looks more unnatural to me than anything else. It's not a real sparring.

No, it is a form. A form is not sparring.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

However, that leg thing that the boxing guy did seemed very strange to me. I don’t know if his presentation was accurate according to other boxing coaches, but I found it very strange.

I’ve seen a few boxing coaches demonstrate that way, but there are a few details in what he’s doing that I don’t care for and the best coaches and fighters I’ve trained with don’t do those.

Primarily, when he rotates his rear hip forward he doesn’t shift his weight forward at all or move his front foot or even change the angle of his front leg (which was already angled inwards slightly). This results in that momentary sort of knock-kneed posture that I suspect you’re picking up on. I think that weakens his structure and also his connection to the ground with his driving foot.

What I’d be curious about is whether he actually fights that way or if it’s just an artifact of trying to teach certain elements of stance and hip rotation to beginners. I have seen a couple of coaches explain the basic technique that way, but I’m not sure I‘ve ever seen a decent boxer actually fight that way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Agree with the method. We tend to break down all our techs this way and train the segments. Then put them together and progress into movement.

It's fun to break down a long form into 10 - 15 move segments. You can then drill that section multiple times, and reverse that segment (L -> R, R -> L) multiple times.

 

[Flying Crane]

I’ve seen a few boxing coaches demonstrate that way, but there are a few details in what he’s doing that I don’t care for and the best coaches and fighters I’ve trained with don’t do those.

Primarily, when he rotates his rear hip forward he doesn’t shift his weight forward at all or move his front foot or even change the angle of his front leg (which was already angled inwards slightly). This results in that momentary sort of knock-kneed posture that I suspect you’re picking up on. I think that weakens his structure and also his connection to the ground with his driving foot.

What I’d be curious about is whether he actually fights that way or if it’s just an artifact of trying to teach certain elements of stance and hip rotation to beginners. I have seen a couple of coaches explain the basic technique that way, but I’m not sure I‘ve ever seen a decent boxer actually fight that way.

I appreciate the commentary Tony.

Yes, it was that turning of the leg onto the ball of the foot and turning the knee inward, while keeping the weight back over that same leg that I found very strange. I’ve seen photos and brief video of boxers who rotate onto that ball of the foot while turning the leg, but it was done as the weight shifted forward during delivery of the punch as, I interpret, a way of emphasizing the push on the ground and rotation of the hips. The concept is identical to what was shown in the rotation in the Hop Ga portion of the video, it is simply a different mechanical approach in accomplishing the same goal. Same idea, different manifestation of that idea.

I can also appreciate that as a teaching methodology the concept would be broken down into discrete sections they might look unusual by themselves, but once the entire method is used fluently, it flows together in a coherent way that eliminates the stand-alone oddity. I can recognize that, within the process of developing skill in the Tibetan approach as well.

The other thing that struck me as strange is how he rotated the fist all the way so the thumb was underneath at the end. Is that typical in boxing? I am familiar with the common method in many Asian systems where the fist begins with the palm facing up and ends with the palm facing down. This was demonstrated by the Hop Ga teacher, although in my lineage we keep the palm facing down the entire path of the punch. But I’ve never seen the thumb routinely go all the way down on a simple straight punch, although we will use it in certain circumstances. In addition to that, I noticed how he held the thumb extended outward and away from the rest of the fist. I assume this is an artifact of the position the thumb takes when wearing boxing gloves. This is one reason I recommend at least some time hitting the heavy bag without gloves and wraps, to understand how a hard fist needs to be held to avoid injury in a situation that might occur outside of the ring.

Just sharing my thoughts and observations.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The other thing that struck me as strange is how he rotated the fist all the way so the thumb was underneath at the end. Is that typical in boxing?

It’s at the extreme end of the spectrum for how much rotation can be taught. The advantage is that it helps teach the student to protect their jaw with their shoulder as they punch. The disadvantage, once again, is that it weakens structure. I’d say that most boxers don’t rotate their fists that far and even those that do, only do it on occasion, not all the time.

I suspect once again that this may be an artifact of teaching, where the coach encourages his students to practice that extreme degree of rotation, figuring that they will end up using less rotation under the stress of actual sparring or fighting.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I appreciate the commentary Tony.

Yes, it was that turning of the leg onto the ball of the foot and turning the knee inward, while keeping the weight back over that same leg that I found very strange. I’ve seen photos and brief video of boxers who rotate onto that ball of the foot while turning the leg, but it was done as the weight shifted forward during delivery of the punch as, I interpret, a way of emphasizing the push on the ground and rotation of the hips. The concept is identical to what was shown in the rotation in the Hop Ga portion of the video, it is simply a different mechanical approach in accomplishing the same goal. Same idea, different manifestation of that idea.

I can also appreciate that as a teaching methodology the concept would be broken down into discrete sections they might look unusual by themselves, but once the entire method is used fluently, it flows together in a coherent way that eliminates the stand-alone oddity. I can recognize that, within the process of developing skill in the Tibetan approach as well.

The other thing that struck me as strange is how he rotated the fist all the way so the thumb was underneath at the end. Is that typical in boxing? I am familiar with the common method in many Asian systems where the fist begins with the palm facing up and ends with the palm facing down. This was demonstrated by the Hop Ga teacher, although in my lineage we keep the palm facing down the entire path of the punch. But I’ve never seen the thumb routinely go all the way down on a simple straight punch, although we will use it in certain circumstances. In addition to that, I noticed how he held the thumb extended outward and away from the rest of the fist. I assume this is an artifact of the position the thumb takes when wearing boxing gloves. This is one reason I recommend at least some time hitting the heavy bag without gloves and wraps, to understand how a hard fist needs to be held to avoid injury in a situation that might occur outside of the ring.

Just sharing my thoughts and observations.

Here’s a much better demonstration of good technique for a boxing right cross.

 

[Flying Crane]

Here’s a much better demonstration of good technique for a boxing right cross.

Interesting video and how his leg was turning into the punch made a lot more sense to me in this one than it did in the previous.

What I noticed did not get discussed, is the specifics of how that leg is turned. All that was said was to turn the hips. But that can come in a number of ways, including turning from the shoulders and dragging the hips and foot behind vs. pushing that foot against the ground to drive the turn with the leg, which is the concept that is heavily stressed in the Tibetan method. I feel that unless the specifics are laid out in plain language, there is a tendency for people to not grasp that important part.

Do boxing coaches talk about that?

I also felt that he rather quickly wanted to get into strategy, when it would have been a more effective video to simply focus deeply on the mechanics of that right cross. Maybe more details would have been covered.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What I noticed did not get discussed, is the specifics of how that leg is turned. All that was said was to turn the hips. But that can come in a number of ways, including turning from the shoulders and dragging the hips and foot behind vs. pushing that foot against the ground to drive the turn with the leg, which is the concept that is heavily stressed in the Tibetan method. I feel that unless the specifics are laid out in plain language, there is a tendency for people to not grasp that important part.

Do boxing coaches talk about that?

That hip turn can be done multiple ways in boxing, depending on the fighter and the situation in the moment. Pushing the rear foot into the ground to drive the hip rotation is the most fundamental approach and the way most coaches will teach.

 

[Flying Crane]

That hip turn can be done multiple ways in boxing, depending on the fighter and the situation in the moment. Pushing the rear foot into the ground to drive the hip rotation is the most fundamental approach and the way most coaches will teach.

Thanks for the clarification. I just haven’t seen it specifically discussed in the (very few) videos I have watched on it, or discussions that I have seen.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To me, this is speed and power in form(Kata):

I see speed, for sure. And the form shows the potential for power. I say "potential for", because I've seen people who demonstrated good form, but didn't really "get" the targeting - they delivered the power at the wrong distance, so their punch was weak.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To me, it’s speed. As for power, that remains in question.

I hate to comment too much since I don’t study Japanese karate and it isn’t fair to judge one system by the norms of another. But what I see in that video is a lack of connection between the upper and lower body. She changes positions and assumes postures, but there is no work being done by the feet and legs, that would give power to the hands. The postures themselves aren’t what is important. It is the transitions between postures that create power, where the real work gets done. The way she shifts from posture to posture does not convince me that she is doing that work. The result is that to my eye, the power is all generated from the shoulders and arms and fails to harness the power of the legs and torso.

It's a different method of linking the body. I can't see the principles in Long Fist and related styles when they are posted, likely for the same reason.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No body method can be seen in your clip.

It's there. It's just not the body linking you're used to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Like I said, it's all relative, the few that Kung Fu Wang showed, I can't even finish watching the video. At least I watched her twice. This is something talk is cheap, I want to see it.

Whether you are comfortable watching a video or not isn't really much of a measure of the technique in the video. Different systems use different approaches to power generation. I've felt some punches (through pads) that I couldn't readily see the power generation for.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I only look for one thing and that is "body method". If I can see a lot of body movement and not much arm movement, that's good clip. If I can see a lot of arm movement but no body movement, that's bad clip.

I truly like to train my form by putting arms behind my back. When I shift weight from one stance to another with body rotation, my arms movement is not important at that moment.

That is probably a good way to evaluate the styles you're familiar with. It isn't a good way to evaluate traditional punching methods I've seen from Japanese arts. There's often a lot of training to keep from over-extending (while still generating power), so the body movement is trained separately, so many drills make it difficult to spot for folks not trained in it. Lunge punches and reverse punches show it, though it still won't look like what you're looking for.

This actually creates an interesting problem early in training: students often don't see it at first, either, so their first attempts entirely lack that link to the body.