Totally agree, at least it shows power where the other videos don't at all. The true test is still on heavy bag.
Body method
- Thread starter Kung Fu Wang
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OP
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- #62
- Power come from bottom -> up, and back -> front.
- Power generation = body push/pull limb.
- All body parts start to move at the same time, and stop at the same time.
- Compress to the maximum, and then release to the maximum.
If there exist another power generation method that's different from what I have described above, I would like to hear.
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Physics behind is very simple that can be taught on the first day of class, just different people/style have different ways of implement this. There is no one best way or one right way.
Also different ways might work for different people, one cannot say turning the body 180deg is the ONLY way and best way while WC punch only has minimal body rotation is the worst. I can only speak for myself which way I prefer to punch. For me, rotating 180deg is way too much, it's slow, I would only do +/-45deg. But that's just me.
As for the girl in the Olympics, that's how Karate is. Hey, she won the gold medal. Are you saying all the expert judges in the BIGGEST sporting event every 4 years, don't know what they are looking and you know better? this is OLYMPICS!!! Not just any competition.
I personally don't even like Karate/TKD punching style, BUT they demonstrate time after time how hard they can punch. If you have any hard punching video of style that rotate 180deg, I would love to see it.
Here are some high power punching, no more than +/-45deg
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J. Pickard
Brown Belt
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First boxing class I took we did jab, cross, bob/weave drills down the floor but the catch was that our gloves had to stay in contact with our cheeks the entire time. It was to reinforce the idea of driving from the feet and translating it forward with the hips and not just using arms. It's such a basic and necessary concept of most types of striking that not only adds tremendous amounts of force to your punches but also helps keep them efficient so you don't get tired as fast.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #65
There is difference between
- your body can turn 180 degree but you don't want to do that, and
- you want to turn 180 degree but your body can't do it.
MA training is to build up your body ability. Whether you want to do that in fighting (for speed reason), that's different story.
It depends on how you may define "speed". IMO, the arm speed is not true speed, the body speed is true speed.
When you move your body so fast that you feel your eye balls is going to fly out of your eye sockets, you have true speed.
In your video, during the beginning of her form (0.47 - 0.55), she moves her arms in circle. If you watch in detail, her body and legs are not moving at that moment. This in CMA, is called "muscle group isolation" which is against the "body unification" - all body parts move/stop at the same time. This may be OK by using Karate standard. This is not OK by using CMA standard.
If a CMA person does that form, he/she may start with a horse hand,
- rise up horse stance while arms move up.
- drop down horse stance while arms move down.
In other words, you should see the "body method" even in that simple move.
- Her body raising should push up her arms.
- Her body drop should pull down her arms.
Without her body raising/dropping, the "body method" is not shown.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #66
Agree with you 100% there. This is why I don't believe there exist other power generation method on earth that doesn't require what you have just described.
Boxing, Karate, CMA, ... we all have the same bodies.
This is arm chair quaterbacking. Show me some video of what you think is correct and ACTUALLY show power, or you can make a video of yourself demonstrating the power so we can learn if you cannot find any. I did search for heavy punching kung fu video, I can't find any. The ones claim is kung fu punch like boxing.
It is so easy to sit back and criticizing other people. I am NO EXPERT, but I do respect others, I look for the result, not sit back and nitpick others, not enough feet, not enough shoulder......... For me, I only look at result. If anyone punch hard, I respect that and appreciate that.
You serious think you KNOW BETTER than the judges of the Olympics? Seriously? You serious think the people in the videos you provided have more power and speed than her? Or even came close? No offense.
I know I only had a few years under my belt, no expert like you guys. After I got all the suggestions and telling me what I am lacking, I really watch my video over and over. Yes, I am slow, I only turn about +/-30deg when punching, not enough feet and all that. BUT, I think I punch reasonably hard, I've seen worst on youtube. At least to me, it's nothing laughable. I respect others opinion, there are always room for improvement, I am actually stop, starting from the beginning right now. I spend more time experimenting, what if I can improve? I don't spend time invalidating others that doesn't do what I consider is correct. I rather appreciate the result and open to the idea that I can be wrong.
I am no expert in MA, but there are other areas that I have the expertise, like in electronic design where I have 3 US patents and published papers on the prestige American Institution of Physics to show. BUT, I constantly looking at other designs and learn from it. I try very hard to be humble because I really do learn from others. If I see anything wrong, I just skip it instead of criticizing it.
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Well, I for one am not convinced that Olympic karate, either kumite or kata, represents the pinnacle of karate quality.
What you may not understand is that kata competition often becomes performance art. Kata is often undermined by a desire to be aesthetically pleasing, and that can become the winning factor in these kinds of competition. While I would hope that any Olympic judges would be held to a high standard and would understand the kata beyond mere performance art, and would be able to judge it appropriately, it ain’t necessarily so.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #69
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The first one is good to me, at least show some snap. The second one is questionable, more sound from the shoes than anything. It's not that snappy.
Still, you turn like this, it's slow for multiple strikes. I personally won't do it like this.
How about videos of punching bags to show how hard they can punch? All this video is to show how snappy he can do, that still has NOTHING to do with how much power he can punch into the bag. Like I don't know whether the girl is powerful punch into the bag, the kata don't show. All I can say is she has a whole lot more speed and snap than the other videos you show.
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Like I said, I trust the Olympic judges a whole lot more. This is Olympics for cry out loud. How big can this get? I don't care about aesthetically pleasing, I look at how fast she can go from stand still and snap the punch and kicks. I overlook that part she stop, then one quick move, stop and another move and all that. I look at how explosive each move to look for power and speed.
Like I said, it's so easy to armchair quarterbacking. Like it's funny after Bruce Lee died, everyone came out and said they can beat him. Where are they when Lee was alive? Why didn't they say it to Lee's face when he was alive. One thing I don't respect is armchair quaterbacking. Don't agree, go show it, prove them wrong. Like I said multiple times, don't think MMA is good, have the guts to go into the ring and prove you are superior. Prove them wrong.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
OP
- Thread Starter
- #73
When you do multiple strikes, you use some fake strikes to set up some real strikes. When you do those fake strikes, you don't need to use body method.
Body method is used for power. It's not used for speed.
This is the incongruency. Olympic judges do care about aesthetically pleasing. That's a large part of what they were judging on, possibly more so than practicality. It's one of the large reasons people have issues with forms training.
Yes, all the stops, hold still are all for show, but the goods are there. Just look past the showmanship and look at the moves. She did show a lot of snaps in the moves, much more so than all the other videos shown here. The only one that show snaps is the one Kung Fu Wang showed in post #69. Still in my opinion, it's not up to her level. Again, this is Olympics, people that disagree should voice their opinion to Olympic people. Make your case and change the standard.
I have issue with form training, I do NOT do forms. The school I went to didn't do forms until 2 weeks before belt test just for testing. To me it's a total waste of time doing forms particular those fancy stuffs that has no place in real fight.
At that, I only said she was fast, show power in punches. I say nothing whether she can actually strike hard on the heavy bag. That's a totally different thing. She yet to proof to me she can really punch hard. That said, she still a huge step up from all the videos shown lately. Like I said, it's so easy to armchair quarterbacking, I yet to see any video that has the snap like her.
It's the same principle. The technique that makes it happen is different. I was taught it through a focus on the hips. It sounds odd, but if you get the hip movement right, it tranforms into a drive from the leg, without having to shift the whole body forward (though you can also shift the whole body forward). It's a little bit related to the rotation that boxing uses, and a little bit related to the idea of the stepping punch you've talked about.
There is no use of the maximum compression/release as you see it - it's done in smaller, more compact segments, instead. So you get a lot of compaction/release in a smaller movement, and it's more of a chain of compression (not everything moves at once/stops at once). It has its advantages and disadvantages compared to the type of body method you've described (as far as I understand it).
That, as far as I can tell, is just a motion for relaxation and gathering focus - not a strike of any kind, so no need for the body to move with it. There may be more to that movement, but it's certainly not any kind of strike or block in that example of the form.
There's a vast distance between it being the pinnacle and it lacking basic principles.
I think the second one is demonstrating use of body momentum (the step) to deliver force, rather than depending upon the speed of the arm driven by the body (the "snappiness" you refer to, which is what I think most of us most readily recognize).
I'll argue that the level of "snappiness" is part of the showiness of the form. It looks and sounds better that way. Power can be delivered with good form without it being that sharp, but it wouldn't look as good in demonstration and competition.
