Body method

[Flying Crane]

Obviously I am not an expert, but From years of punching, I don't think big movement implies hard punches. I don't think people can tell how good a person punch by just doing forms, get on the heavy bag and one can tell very fast how good and how powerful the punching is.

Also, the more exaggerate the shoulder rotation, the slower the punches are as it takes time to turn the body and recover from the last punch.

I agree that forms alone are only one tool in a toolbox that needs to contain several. Big movement itself does not automatically mean powerful punches. However, big movement is a training mechanism that helps you understand how to connect the body parts and make it fully connected, full-body connection in your movement. That can lead to very powerful technique, which still needs to be trained on a heavy bag or other striking tool.

Big movement can be misunderstood or trained poorly in ways that do not help in this development. It all depends on how it is done.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Obviously I am not an expert, but From years of punching, I don't think big movement implies hard punches. I don't think people can tell how good a person punch by just doing forms, get on the heavy bag and one can tell very fast how good and how powerful the punching is.

Also, the more exaggerate the shoulder rotation, the slower the punches are as it takes time to turn the body and recover from the last punch.

This is an approach I've seen in Japanese training, too. Some principles are isolated in certain drills, so they are trained in an exaggerated fashion that forces specific usage (when taught properly - they can also be taught improperly). I don't know anyone who expects forms to demonstrate how good a punch is - they are a tool for developing skills, not demonstrations of the final product.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Curious, who does this type of training? I have never seen an art that trains this way.

If we compare the following 2 clips, it's easy to see the big difference in the training.

 

[Alan0354]

To me, this is speed and power in form(Kata):

 

[Flying Crane]

To me, this is speed and power in form(Kata):

To me, it’s speed. As for power, that remains in question.

I hate to comment too much since I don’t study Japanese karate and it isn’t fair to judge one system by the norms of another. But what I see in that video is a lack of connection between the upper and lower body. She changes positions and assumes postures, but there is no work being done by the feet and legs, that would give power to the hands. The postures themselves aren’t what is important. It is the transitions between postures that create power, where the real work gets done. The way she shifts from posture to posture does not convince me that she is doing that work. The result is that to my eye, the power is all generated from the shoulders and arms and fails to harness the power of the legs and torso.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To me, this is speed and power in form(Kata):

What's your opinion about this power generation?

What's your opinion about this speed generation?

 

[Alan0354]

To me, it’s speed. As for power, that remains in question.

I hate to comment too much since I don’t study Japanese karate and it isn’t fair to judge one system by the norms of another. But what I see in that video is a lack of connection between the upper and lower body. She changes positions and assumes postures, but there is no work being done by the feet and legs, that would give power to the hands. The postures themselves aren’t what is important. It is the transitions between postures that create power, where the real work gets done. The way she shifts from posture to posture does not convince me that she is doing that work. The result is that to my eye, the power is all generated from the shoulders and arms and fails to harness the power of the legs and torso.

Maybe that's how karate is, it's not kung fu, you don't see big shoulder movement. At least it got more power than a lot of the video shown here. When comes to power, you have to get onto the bag to tell. In my TKD class, we talk about using feet and shoulder, but not to this extreme. There are a lot of people in karate and TKD that punch really really hard.

I don't even see boxing turn so much, to me boxing hands is the best in real world( on punching only of cause, there are a lot more in fighting). Hate to keep bringing up MMA, for punching, it's mostly boxing hands. It is effective in real world. they are known to punch very hard. Might not be fancy or for show, but boxing hands are well proven.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To me, this is speed and power in form(Kata):

No body method can be seen in your clip.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't even see boxing turn so much,

Here is a good example. He uses left cross to stretch his body to the maximum (compress). He then borrows the retraction and throws out his right hook (release).

Same compress-release principle as this, going extreme to one side, borrow the counter force, and going extreme to the other side.

 

[Alan0354]

No body method can be seen in your clip.

She punch hard, more so than those videos you shown. I am searching for kung fu heavy bag punching to see. If you have any impressive ones in kung fu punching on heavy bag, please post it. So far, the only one comes close is this video that shows punching of different styles:

I want result, real world hard punching. It someone can show me heavy punch with only arms, I would buy it. I really don't think there is right or wrong way, the right way for YOU are the way when you punch hardest on a heavy bag.

I am open to try, from the other post, I am going back to the beginning, show motion, punching light and use more body, keeping my elbows tight. BUT I am doing it as an experiment, I want to see what is the result before I decide which way to go. Even though I am old, technique has a lot of things that can be improved, BUT I don't think I am a light puncher. I want result, if I can punch harder in say 3 months of practice, I will buy. If not, I'll go back to my old ways.

 

[Flying Crane]

Maybe that's how karate is, it's not kung fu, you don't see big shoulder movement. At least it got more power than a lot of the video shown here. When comes to power, you have to get onto the bag to tell. In my TKD class, we talk about using feet and shoulder, but not to this extreme. There are a lot of people in karate and TKD that punch really really hard.

I don't even see boxing turn so much, to me boxing hands is the best in real world( on punching only of cause, there are a lot more in fighting). Hate to keep bringing up MMA, for punching, it's mostly boxing hands. It is effective in real world. they are known to punch very hard. Might not be fancy or for show, but boxing hands are well proven.

Well, I can’t speak for karate. But my feeling about that video is that the kata was done as a performance, to impress an audience of people who mostly don’t understand karate and are easily impressed. As such, it is not the same thing as Okinawan karate that is meant for fighting. And yes, there are karate and Tae Kwon do people who punch very hard. No method has the monopoly on that. Different systems have devised training methodologies that work very well if someone trains hard and sticks to the method.

Boxing has a well established method that is popular and also very effective. No argument from me. Whether or not it is the best, I don’t agree, if nothing else but because a method is only as effective as someone is interested in training it. While boxing is popular, it by no means holds universal interest for everyone. As I mentioned above, other methods also yield tremendous results. Many of these methods are less common than boxing and don’t get commonly noticed so most people are unfamiliar with them. Is one truly better than the other? It’s hard to say. But the one that holds your interest and keeps you training is most definitely better for you, than the one for which you have no interest and won’t train. Boxing is not the end-all.

 

[Alan0354]

Here is a good example. He uses left cross to stretch his body to the maximum (compress). He then borrows the retraction and throws out his right hook (release).

Still, not like what you show, the guy still only from -45 to 45deg. Of cause, he is chasing, normal boxing doesn't necessary turn a lot. Usually not even -45 to 45deg.

Like this one I posted. This is hard punch and fast. He is not going -45 to 45.

Like I said, I am still looking for kung fu punch on heavy bag. If you have impressive ones, I would really like to see.

 

[Flying Crane]

She punch hard, more so than those videos you shown.

See, I don’t know if she punches hard or not. Maybe she can get some power. But I don’t see a lot of the things that are markers to indicate it. Still, she would need to train her strikes on a heavy bag or other tool to develop that power. From watching the video, I can’t tell if the has power or not. She does present a nice performance, though.

 

[Flying Crane]

Still, not like what you show, the guy still only from -45 to 45deg. Of cause, he is chasing, normal boxing doesn't necessary turn a lot. Usually not even -45 to 45deg.

Like this one I posted. This is hard punch and fast. He is not going -45 to 45.

Like I said, I am still looking for kung fu punch on heavy bag. If you have impressive ones, I would really like to see.

But this guy is using torso rotation and it looks to me like he is driving it with the feet and legs, which in my opinion is a good thing. But the impact with his fist on the bag is where is rotation suddenly stops, because that looks like a heavy bag, perhaps 120 pounds, and while it is possible to hit it hard enough for it to swing, he cannot actually punch through it. So actually striking a solid object places limits on how far you are able to rotate, it brings the rotation to a sudden halt. If you are working on technique in the air, that rotation would likely be farther.

 

[Alan0354]

See, I don’t know if she punches hard or not. Maybe she can get some power. But I don’t see a lot of the things that are markers to indicate it. Still, she would need to train her strikes on a heavy bag or other tool to develop that power. From watching the video, I can’t tell if the has power or not. She does present a nice performance, though.

Like I said, it's all relative, the few that Kung Fu Wang showed, I can't even finish watching the video. At least I watched her twice. This is something talk is cheap, I want to see it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Like I said, it's all relative, the few that Kung Fu Wang showed, I can't even finish watching the video. At least I watched her twice. This is something talk is cheap, I want to see it.

Honestly, I had a hard time watching this one all the way through. It felt like cheap performance art to me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I want result,

But you can't skip the basic training. If you have not developed your body method, your heavy bag training won't be able to bring you very far.

This is the problem for MA training. People want result but people don't want to go through the basic training.

For example, if you have not gone through the training in next clip, your body flexibility may not be trained to the maximum.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Like I said, it's all relative, the few that Kung Fu Wang showed, I can't even finish watching the video. At least I watched her twice. This is something talk is cheap, I want to see it.

IMO, this video is much more pleasant to watch than the one you provide.

 

[Alan0354]

Honestly, I had a hard time watching this one all the way through. It felt like cheap performance art to me.

I guess we are looking for different things, I am looking for speed and power.

I might be partial to boxing also, our school was TKD, but we really learn kick boxing strongly influenced by Bruce Lee(which a lot of kung fu guys still trash). It's all boxing hands and TKD kicks. We did not do forms at all until 2 weeks before belt test, then forget all about it afterwards.

If I knew better at the time, I would go with Muy Thai that has elbow and knees on top of boxing hands and kicks. Of cause, if I were young today, I would go with MMA, that's no brainer. That's the complete package, Muy Thai+BJJ and more.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I guess we are looking for different things, I am looking for speed and power.

I only look for one thing and that is "body method". If I can see a lot of body movement and not much arm movement, that's good clip. If I can see a lot of arm movement but no body movement, that's bad clip.

I truly like to train my form by putting arms behind my back. When I shift weight from one stance to another with body rotation, my arms movement is not important at that moment.