Black History Month is Ridiculous?

[sgtmac_46]

im judging from a sample residing in Orange County, california! starting from cops too
i think there's more reasons to believe racism is still dominent than not. in fact i see no reasons to say racism has disappeared!
again that's what i meant by the problem is both arrogance and ignorance (im not calling you either by the way)
but people are too arrogant to admit their flaws, or they're too close-minded to understand what they do wrong.
hey hey.. reminds me!
didn u see the news when new orleans was evacuated? don tell me there's no racism.. please! (and to the degree of not admitting slavery is wrong)

I agree about arrogance and ignorance being the big problem, thank you for illustrating that point perfectly. Some people never seem to realize what part they play in a problem, preferring, as they do, to constantly blame others for their own problems as if they have no culpability in creating those problems.

 

[sgtmac_46]

no it's not
but it's a "slice"
btw, it's a valid statistical way
you take a slice of the society and you can make a conclusion (yes there is an error margin, and the results MIGHT be tentative)
btw, california alone is responsible for 25% of the nation's hate crimes (racist crimes) and that's a statistic in 2004 done by zoghby foundation

note: dont get me wrong, i met racist asians blacks or hispanics, and i met the nicest whites too... there's always exceptions!

Well, since you're stuck on statistics, why don't you enlighten us on what 2% to 4% segment of society is responsible for 52% of the murder rate.

Are we to assume that racism is the cause of that, or could it be that some people need to look internally for answers, instead of constantly casting about to find someone to blame? (Hint: Try the Bureau of Justice Statistics).

 

[mantis]

yes
that's not my point
my point was that california is a good place to examine racism if you wanna find it.
i personally was subject to racist acts here in orange county
again, what im trying to communicate is what i know about a sample that i have contact with.
im still talking about OC, i didnt start talking about alabama!!

 

[sgtmac_46]

yes
that's not my point
my point was that california is a good place to examine racism if you wanna find it.
i personally was subject to racist acts here in orange county
again, what im trying to communicate is what i know about a sample that i have contact with.
im still talking about OC, i didnt start talking about alabama!!

I'll make an observation about racism that i've made several times in the past. The assumption about racism is that it's indemic in areas where people have the least contact with other races, say, middle America.

The reality, however, is that racism is greatest on the periphery of where several cultures meet. OC, for example, is an area that borders many other cultural and racial areas. Racism, as we refer to, is phenomenon that occurs when there are pressures from outgroups, on what we perceive as our ingroup.

Because OC has white communities that are under pressure from expanding black and hispanic communities. The natural result is HUGE racial tension.

Again, the common belief is that a rural white, with little or no contact with minorities, is the most racist person. The idea that 'ignorance' breeds racism. The reality, however, is that the most racist people i've ever met are working class whites who lived for long periods of time in areas that bordered on black communities.

It seems that competition with other groups, not ignorance, breeds racism.

 

[mantis]

I'll make an observation about racism that i've made several times in the past. The assumption about racism is that it's indemic in areas where people have the least contact with other races, say, middle America.

The reality, however, is that racism is greatest on the periphery of where several cultures meet. OC, for example, is an area that borders many other cultural and racial areas. Racism, as we refer to, is phenomenon that occurs when there are pressures from outgroups, on what we perceive as our ingroup.

Because OC has white communities that are under pressure from expanding black and hispanic communities. The natural result is HUGE racial tension.

Again, the common belief is that a rural white, with little or no contact with minorities, is the most racist person. The idea that 'ignorance' breeds racism. The reality, however, is that the most racist people i've ever met are working class whites who lived for long periods of time in areas that bordered on black communities.

It seems that competition with other groups, not ignorance, breeds racism.

oh, now ur making a lot of sense
which reminds me of a plan to make a railroad between UC Irvine, santa ana, and los angeles to take pressure off the 5 and 405 freeway (america's larget parking lots!!)
the plan was rejected because they didnt want the "low class people" from santa ana (ie mexicans) to go near Irvine!
i still think believing in race supremacy has an effect to this too!
thanks for the post

 

[sgtmac_46]

oh, now ur making a lot of sense
which reminds me of a plan to make a railroad between UC Irvine, santa ana, and los angeles to take pressure off the 5 and 405 freeway (america's larget parking lots!!)
the plan was rejected because they didnt want the "low class people" from santa ana (ie mexicans) to go near Irvine!
i still think believing in race supremacy has an effect to this too!
thanks for the post

I should also add the most racist blacks are those that live on that periphery as well.

In rural areas, where blacks and whites have lived with each other for generations, racial tensions are relatively low.

That is also why blacks tend to have GREAT hatred of Asians who move in to black communities and start businesses. It's the perception of competition.

We can see this historically. Irish immigrants were viewed the same way when they first landed in New York.

Again, it is competition for resources as much as anything else that drives racist views. As such, the response exists internally to perceptions of competition, instead of being learned.

 

[arnisador]

But that is assuming its the governments place to appologize...why?

Well, because that's who legalized and regulated slavery for many years.

Why is the current U.S. Government the one to point the finger at and demand apologies from?

Because it's the same U.S. govt, as in the late 1700s, but with different employees. We're the same country. Is Xerox a new company every time it changes CEOs?

 

[sgtmac_46]

Well, because that's who legalized and regulated slavery for many years.

Actually, by that argument then the Dutch slave traders should apologize first. Then the British. Then the original african states that captured and sold slaves. Oh, and lets not forget the Portugese. And the Spanish. It should be noted that the US banned importation of slaves in 1807, the same year that Great Britain banned the Atlantic Slave trade. If we examine who profited most from slavery, we realize that the United States is not at the top of the list. What's more, slavery was and still is a common practice in Africa, and it was certainly not invented by the white man. The majority of slaves imported in to the New World didn't even go to what became the United States, they went to the tropics, where they were used for the production of sugar for the benefit of Europe.

Between 1600 and 1800 the English imported around 1.7 million slaves to their West Indian possessions. The fact that there were well over a million fewer slaves in the British colonies than had been imported to them illustrates the conditions in which they lived. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade

Then, in 1861, the FEDERAL government went to war against rogue states to, once and for all, end the institution of slavery. Anyone who believes that Federal government circa 1776 was the same one that went to war in 1861 is not aware of the history of the federal government.

All of this is irrelavent, as there is no one alive who had ANYTHING to do with any of it directly.
If the world spent it's time obsessed about events that happened 200 years ago, we'd spend all our time living in the past and fighting past battles.

Because it's the same U.S. govt, as in the late 1700s, but with different employees. We're the same country. Is Xerox a new company every time it changes CEOs?

Show me where anything was codified in federal law. The fact is that the US federal government did not begin slavery, it did not regulate slavery, and it did not have any hand in the importation of slavery, except to ultimately ban it.

The reality is the institution of Slavery was controlled on the state level. It's why we went to war in 1861, and the states that enacted and operated slavery are NOT the same states that emerged post civil war.

So, the Federal government had no role in slavery....except to intervene and outlaw it.

So, that leaves individual states as your 'corporations' that are responsible, if at all. What's more, those states were drastically punished and changed as a result of the civil war.

Slavery was a crime, and the punishment due has already been metted out. We don't keep punishing prisoners who have served their time.

 

[shesulsa]

the plan was rejected because they didnt want the "low class people" from santa ana (ie mexicans) to go near Irvine!

Yeah, cuz that's what the 55 fwy is for. Ever hear of the Orange Crush? It's IN Santa Ana and it heads to all directions of O.C. But, yeah, those old Chevy's might overheat before they ever get to Irvine. :whip:

Irvine was developed by The Irvine Company, my former employer, which used to own some of the last agriculture in the county which employed many hispanic workers. Alas, Joan Irvine Smith sold much of the remaining ranch to TIC who grew nothing but office buildings, commercial buildings and retail space designed for the high-dollar income specifically which will mostly be white white-collar workers. Although the Middle-Eastern population of OC has grown dramatically and controls much of the smaller businesses as does the Vietnamese population which converted virtually ALL of Bolsa Avenue to Little Saigon, much to the protest of some already residing Vietnam veterans. Oeste Treces gang staked out territory over much of Santa Ana, Westminster, Midway City and Fountain Valley. Heck, you can't go ANYWHERE in OC without seeing multiple races - even Irvine and Newport Beach.

Not that I mind ... I don't live there anymore and don't need to dodge the flying bullets ... at night in my apartment where I used to live OR on the freeway.

Back to honoring heritage ... I liken this whole thing to Hallmark cards and the cause-of-the-month. Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Autism Awareness Month. Prostate Cancer Awareness Month. Women's History Month. President's Weekend. Cardiac Awareness Month. Friendship week. Or, how about holidays? Christmas? Valentine's Day? Easter?

See, we could be educating ourselves about cancer, heart disease, developmental disorders, women's history, black American history, executive office veterans all the time. We could be getting our friends little presents all the time and writing them sweet notes (or giving them high fives) so that they know what in your eyes makes them special, and making an extra effort to love your honey just because ALL THE TIME.

But we don't. We play D&D, post on forums, drive thru Starbucks and McDonalds, drive our kids to soccer, shop online, tap our PDAs and send e-cards. We've set aside special occasions in an effort to devote serious national attention to important issues. Problem is ... a lot of notoriety on one day, one week, one month doesn't fix problems. Continuous attention, awareness, education DOES. How do we get that?

This can only come with a firm value system based on the principles of living with gratitude, respect and love. Without these three elements we cram data into our heads, listen to talking heads and formulate opinions based on apathy and intolerance.

So ... whatever ... yeah ... feel it every day. Live Christmas every day. Learn about ALL history every day. Appreciate your friends every day. Love your spouse every day. Apologize for any wrongdoing every day. Make a special occasion to amplify it a bit more once in a while - just don't forget that first part every day.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yeah, cuz that's what the 55 fwy is for. Ever hear of the Orange Crush? It's IN Santa Ana and it heads to all directions of O.C. But, yeah, those old Chevy's might overheat before they ever get to Irvine. :whip:

Irvine was developed by The Irvine Company, my former employer, which used to own some of the last agriculture in the county which employed many hispanic workers. Alas, Joan Irvine Smith sold much of the remaining ranch to TIC who grew nothing but office buildings, commercial buildings and retail space designed for the high-dollar income specifically which will mostly be white white-collar workers. Although the Middle-Eastern population of OC has grown dramatically and controls much of the smaller businesses as does the Vietnamese population which converted virtually ALL of Bolsa Avenue to Little Saigon, much to the protest of some already residing Vietnam veterans. Oeste Treces gang staked out territory over much of Santa Ana, Westminster, Midway City and Fountain Valley. Heck, you can't go ANYWHERE in OC without seeing multiple races - even Irvine and Newport Beach.

Not that I mind ... I don't live there anymore and don't need to dodge the flying bullets ... at night in my apartment where I used to live OR on the freeway.

Back to honoring heritage ... I liken this whole thing to Hallmark cards and the cause-of-the-month. Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Autism Awareness Month. Prostate Cancer Awareness Month. Women's History Month. President's Weekend. Cardiac Awareness Month. Friendship week. Or, how about holidays? Christmas? Valentine's Day? Easter?

See, we could be educating ourselves about cancer, heart disease, developmental disorders, women's history, black American history, executive office veterans all the time. We could be getting our friends little presents all the time and writing them sweet notes (or giving them high fives) so that they know what in your eyes makes them special, and making an extra effort to love your honey just because ALL THE TIME.

But we don't. We play D&D, post on forums, drive thru Starbucks and McDonalds, drive our kids to soccer, shop online, tap our PDAs and send e-cards. We've set aside special occasions in an effort to devote serious national attention to important issues. Problem is ... a lot of notoriety on one day, one week, one month doesn't fix problems. Continuous attention, awareness, education DOES. How do we get that?

This can only come with a firm value system based on the principles of living with gratitude, respect and love. Without these three elements we cram data into our heads, listen to talking heads and formulate opinions based on apathy and intolerance.

So ... whatever ... yeah ... feel it every day. Live Christmas every day. Learn about ALL history every day. Appreciate your friends every day. Love your spouse every day. Apologize for any wrongdoing every day. Make a special occasion to amplify it a bit more once in a while - just don't forget that first part every day.

God bless us everyone.

(Sorry, couldn't resist...I was watching 'Scrooged' with Bill Murray)

 

[7starmantis]

Actually, by that argument then the Dutch slave traders should apologize first. Then the British. Then the original african states that captured and sold slaves. Oh, and lets not forget the Portugese. And the Spanish. It should be noted that the US banned importation of slaves in 1807, the same year that Great Britain banned the Atlantic Slave trade. If we examine who profited most from slavery, we realize that the United States is not at the top of the list. What's more, slavery was and still is a common practice in Africa, and it was certainly not invented by the white man. The majority of slaves imported in to the New World didn't even go to what became the United States, they went to the tropics, where they were used for the production of sugar for the benefit of Europe.



Then, in 1861, the FEDERAL government went to war against rogue states to, once and for all, end the institution of slavery. Anyone who believes that Federal government circa 1776 was the same one that went to war in 1861 is not aware of the history of the federal government.

All of this is irrelavent, as there is no one alive who had ANYTHING to do with any of it directly.
If the world spent it's time obsessed about events that happened 200 years ago, we'd spend all our time living in the past and fighting past battles.

Show me where anything was codified in federal law. The fact is that the US federal government did not begin slavery, it did not regulate slavery, and it did not have any hand in the importation of slavery, except to ultimately ban it.

The reality is the institution of Slavery was controlled on the state level. It's why we went to war in 1861, and the states that enacted and operated slavery are NOT the same states that emerged post civil war.

So, the Federal government had no role in slavery....except to intervene and outlaw it.

So, that leaves individual states as your 'corporations' that are responsible, if at all. What's more, those states were drastically punished and changed as a result of the civil war.

Slavery was a crime, and the punishment due has already been metted out. We don't keep punishing prisoners who have served their time.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

7sm

 

[arnisador]

Actually, by that argument then the Dutch slave traders should apologize first. Then the British. Then the original african states that captured and sold slaves. Oh, and lets not forget the Portugese. And the Spanish.

"You can't give me a ticket, officer, other people were speeding too!"

All of this is irrelavent, as there is no one alive who had ANYTHING to do with any of it directly.

Uncle Sam is still here. Don't we still have a United States of America? Did I miss the revolution?

Show me where anything was codified in federal law. The fact is that the US federal government did not begin slavery, it did not regulate slavery, and it did not have any hand in the importation of slavery, except to ultimately ban it.

The most obvious thing that comes to mind is the 3/5 compromise. Surely, that legalized slavery (or at least left it to the individual states to regulate it).

Are we too proud to apologize?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

At the end of the War of Northern Aggression, the conquered nations that had formed the confederacy had their independence removed at gunpoint by the hostile invader who had fought a war in defiance of it's own laws and international law. These conquered nations were stripped of their independent constitutions, new constitutions were forced upon them, and they were absorbed into the "Union" against their will.

Numerous points of fall out came from this action.
- Freed slaves were not "educated and merged into society". They were mostly left to fend for themselves.
- The government of the North had broken many of it's own laws and policies in the course of this action, including the exile of congressmen who spoke out against this action.
- The Northern government began a long series of 'power grabs'. Previous administrations had been limited in how much involvement into daily lives and private businesses it could have. After the WONA, this changed, and massive government spending began.

One could argue that yes, there was a revolution, one which killed forever the Jeffersonian view of a small Federal government, and set us on our present course where big business is the most important citizen. Conspiracy buffs might also point to the Kenedy assassinations as another overthrow.

There WAS a war fought where the issue of slavery was a key point, but that war ended in 1783. One of the key points was the King of England and his governors refusal to end the importation of slaves to the colonies.

The myth that the WONA was fought over slavery has prospered but is a romantic fallacy. That war was fought over the same things most are. Power, control and money. There is historical proof that just prior to the outbreak of hostilities, that an amendment had passed congress and been ratified that would have firmly left the slave issue in the hands of the states. This "missing" amendment was printed in copies of the constitution for some time, later to be replaced with the one ending slavery in the US.

The bottom line is, no this is not the same nation as it was in 1783, or 1865. The conquered South has been destroyed, and absorbed. Those states that were "slave states" no longer exist, replaced by seperate entities bearing the same name. There has been a major reorganization of the Federal Government as well, that makes it quite "alien" to it's founders. I see no reason for an apology, especially since there is no one alive today who was directly impacted by that despised institution.

 

[mantis]

what i can see so far is
- americans are very unapologetic and too arrogant to admit their mistakes. they even refuse to do anything to show "good faith" to start a new clean history
- the american society will never see an end to racism
- diversity, what americans claim to be a strength, is actually a weakness. different communities are ready to burst and eat the others when they have a chance!
correct me if im wrong
(goal is not offending americans but that's what i sensed so far)

 

[Bob Hubbard]

what i can see so far is
- americans are very unapologetic and too arrogant to admit their mistakes. they even refuse to do anything to show "good faith" to start a new clean history

Why should I apologize or admit to a mistake that wasn't mine, not my ancestors?

- the american society will never see an end to racism

Probably not in our lifetimes.

- diversity, what americans claim to be a strength, is actually a weakness. different communities are ready to burst and eat the others when they have a chance!

I agree, yet disagree. The bulk of this sites staff for example is American, from many ethnic groups, faiths and social levels, yet we get along fine.
I've attended martial arts events, sci-fi/fantasy cons, and other events where the participation was just as mixed, just as diverse and found simply a group of people, enjoying a mutual interest together. By the same token, I've also been in parts of my own town where I simply didn't feel safe, many of those were ethic neighborhoods. The vibes were hostile, is the only way to describe it.

My apology won't make a bit of difference. The ones screaming the most for an apology want it to lead to a big cash payout. One that I disagree with, unless someone can prove to me that our system is somehow geared towards still keeping people down. The success of Asian and Hispanic 1st and 2nd generation immigrants (who faced language, as well as cultural barriers) would lead me to believe that it's not history that keeps you down, but your own internal drive and desire to succeed.

I simply refuse to reward laziness with a false apology and free money.

I also repeat that we should be celebrating people, not sub-sections of people. Honor Dr. Carver, Dr. Cosby and the rest as people, who went the distance, and after hard work, and alot of struggle, reached the top.

 

[Touch Of Death]

what i can see so far is
- americans are very unapologetic and too arrogant to admit their mistakes. they even refuse to do anything to show "good faith" to start a new clean history
- the american society will never see an end to racism
- diversity, what americans claim to be a strength, is actually a weakness. different communities are ready to burst and eat the others when they have a chance!
correct me if im wrong
(goal is not offending americans but that's what i sensed so far)

Diversity isn't the problem. Whats taking us downhill are things like taking away the pledge of allegiance due to legal arguments over over McArthy (spelling) era pork that got tacked on in the fifties. The civil war was fought to maintain the Union. Without a sense of unity we are lost. I feel public acknowlegment and maybe even some gestures of good faith would strengthen that union.
Sean

 

[mantis]

Why should I apologize or admit to a mistake that wasn't mine, not my ancestors?

Probably not in our lifetimes.

I agree, yet disagree. The bulk of this sites staff for example is American, from many ethnic groups, faiths and social levels, yet we get along fine.
I've attended martial arts events, sci-fi/fantasy cons, and other events where the participation was just as mixed, just as diverse and found simply a group of people, enjoying a mutual interest together. By the same token, I've also been in parts of my own town where I simply didn't feel safe, many of those were ethic neighborhoods. The vibes were hostile, is the only way to describe it.

My apology won't make a bit of difference. The ones screaming the most for an apology want it to lead to a big cash payout. One that I disagree with, unless someone can prove to me that our system is somehow geared towards still keeping people down. The success of Asian and Hispanic 1st and 2nd generation immigrants (who faced language, as well as cultural barriers) would lead me to believe that it's not history that keeps you down, but your own internal drive and desire to succeed.

I simply refuse to reward laziness with a false apology and free money.

I also repeat that we should be celebrating people, not sub-sections of people. Honor Dr. Carver, Dr. Cosby and the rest as people, who went the distance, and after hard work, and alot of struggle, reached the top.

wise words mr. hubbard.
why would you apologize? the plain statement "we're sorry we committed a mistake" shows good faith and can be a good start to more balanced society. But that's not the apology i was talking about. the apology that i find real is done by the people by omitting every racist act a community possesses against another.
you know what's sad, although this doesnt really have to do with this discussion, is BLACKS themselves are racist!
they descriminate against africans too man! wth!!!!

 

[mantis]

Diversity isn't the problem. Whats taking us downhill are things like taking away the pledge of allegiance due to legal arguments over over McArthy (spelling) era pork that got tacked on in the fifties. The civil war was fought to maintain the Union. Without a sense of unity we are lost. I feel public acknowlegment and maybe even some gestures of good faith would strengthen that union.
Sean

i know
diversity should be a strength, especially for a new civilization or a culture like the american. but it becomes a problem when there's no social acceptance between communities, and that's what i am talking about

 

[arnisador]

The bottom line is, no this is not the same nation as it was in 1783, or 1865.

Legally, though, it is.

Would you let a company slip through this type of legal loophole? Change a name and cite the length of time and board turnover as a means of avoiding liability for the company's actions?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

No. Legally it's not.

It's not the same nation today, as it was in 1783.

Timeline:
*Articles of Confederation adopted 1777 - The Articles created a loose confederation of sovereign states and a weak central government, leaving most of the power with the state governments.
*Full ratification by 13 states occured 1781
*Constitutional Convention held 1787
*US Constitution replaces AOC 1789

In order to adopt the US Constitution, the states had to leave the Confederation. This in effect created a new entity and disolved the old one.

Therefore, the Current United States is not the same legal entity as the one the existed at the end of the War for Independance.

Source: http://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/articles.html