Black History Month is Ridiculous?

[Don Roley]

I think the expectation of an apology or any other "public" action is the very base of the problem we still have with racism and descrimination.

You know, the more I read the above, the more sense it makes to me.

If people, black people, are saying they want an apology from us, then what they are saying is that they blame us for their situation.

We know slavery was bad and that it was a shamefull part of our past. But the calls for an apology are not about accepting the past and moving on, but in placing blame. And the people apologizing for it are the ones to blame. Not the guys in the past, the white people living now are the ones to blame.

So what they are is not their fault. If they did not do well in school, or get a good job, it is because of some force outside their control and the blame must be stuck on someone else. Their is little need to accpet responsibility for their actions or their choices- someone else is to blame if they are not doing as well as they think they should.

Good point!!!!

 

[Guro Harold]

You know, the more I read the above, the more sense it makes to me.

If people, black people, are saying they want an apology from us, then what they are saying is that they blame us for their situation.

We know slavery was bad and that it was a shamefull part of our past. But the calls for an apology are not about accepting the past and moving on, but in placing blame. And the people apologizing for it are the ones to blame. Not the guys in the past, the white people living now are the ones to blame.

So what they are is not their fault. If they did not do well in school, or get a good job, it is because of some force outside their control and the blame must be stuck on someone else. Their is little need to accpet responsibility for their actions or their choices- someone else is to blame if they are not doing as well as they think they should.

Good point!!!!

Hmmm,

China wants apologies from Japan for WWII.
Korean wants apologies from Japan for WWII.
The victims of Japanese Internment received an apology from the US Government and cash.

Apologies have been used politically.

 

[7starmantis]

Having been used and being a part of the problem can bo co-exist.

7sm

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think the expectation of an apology or any other "public" action is the very base of the problem we still have with racism and descrimination.

7sm

I would say its the injustice and subsequent white wash and cover up itself. You can't blame a group of like individuals for pointing it out.
Sean

 

[sgtmac_46]

Or we could admit that some of the present situations are directly attributable to clear past injustice your family chose to be US citizens at some point in the past and therefore became part of the US population. No one is asking you to personaly get on your knees, they are asking you to realize what it took to make America America. I have a freind whos Indian Tribe was only recognized about two years ago, and that was a long time comming. Your right though. No one can make you become part of the solution. That is a personal choice, and you have made it.
Sean

What is the solution, is to stop using the past as an excuse for present failures. How are further excuses going to solve anything? Perhaps a little acknowledgement that people have control over their own lives and what they do with it would be a better start than trying to tally up what, other than themselves, has caused someone to act the way they do right now.

You are responsible for you. Someone may have wronged you in the past, but that is no excuse for present or future behavior that is self-destructive.

What's more, i'm glad you brought up native americans. What happened 100 years ago or more in the history of the US was unfortunate. However, what is holding native americans back today is that many are clinging to the past with the reservation culture, which yields high rates of poverty, alcoholism, and poor education. Those that left the reservations are successful and contributing members of society.

It seems that clinging to the past is the problem, not looking to the future. At some point in the process, people need to realize that the chains on their wrists, are ones of their own making.

Move on and get over it. It's starting to remind me of those people who spend half their life in therapy complaining about their controlling mother and their horrible childhood. It's a mental illness, that would be cured if they'd just 'let it go' and move on.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well you are right that the reservation thing may have ended up being counter productive, and I'm sure putting Indians there and then just trying to forget about them was not the best course of action. As you suggest, dropping any personal grievance forgetting your culture and blending in would solve many problems. Would you drop yours?
Sean

 

[Makalakumu]

One point that was made above regarded the special treatment of minority groups. Legislation like affirmative action, student aid, and housing aid favor one group over another based on the color of one's skin. I've never thought this was good thing, however, I think at the time it was conceived, it was the right move because society had to be "forced" to change into something more equitable.

It would be nice if we could drop skin color altogether and just focus on helping people with a few key things that help people become successful...like health care and education. If one has a healthy body and a trained mind, there aren't many reasons why that individual can't be successful...and none of those should depend on the color of one's skin.

 

[7starmantis]

I would say its the injustice and subsequent white wash and cover up itself. You can't blame a group of like individuals for pointing it out.
Sean

The injustice and "white wash" has been done, nothing can change that. Focusing on it only holds us back. Also, I'm not talking about pointing out an injustice, I specifically said the expectation of public appologies and public "recourse". However, I would say that continued "pointing out" of past injustices do hold us back to some degree. Its hard to help those Native Americans that need help if I'm so focused on bitching about the past genocide of my race.

What's more, i'm glad you brought up native americans. What happened 100 years ago or more in the history of the US was unfortunate. However, what is holding native americans back today is that many are clinging to the past with the reservation culture, which yields high rates of poverty, alcoholism, and poor education. Those that left the reservations are successful and contributing members of society.

I agree. It goes along with my idea that continued focus on past wrongs holds one back from future rights. I would like to point out that there are successful reservations and tribes, but few and far between. I like the way the legalities of the reservations work, I think its a great way to honor the Native Americans, but we can see that this attempt at "reparations" has been the downfall of many a Native American.

Well you are right that the reservation thing may have ended up being counter productive, and I'm sure putting Indians there and then just trying to forget about them was not the best course of action. As you suggest, dropping any personal grievance forgetting your culture and blending in would solve many problems. Would you drop yours?
Sean

First, the fraction of NA's that actually lived to see a reservation is staggeringly small.
Second, no one is talking about "forgetting your culture". Thats an extreme that is somewhat disingenuous in my opinion. I haven't forgotten my culture as a card carrying, active member of the Comanche Nation, but I simply do not hold onto past grievences....what could that possibly yield?
We're talking about dropping the expectation of public reparations and dropping of "pointing the finger" and placing blame on a person or people who have absolutely nothing to do with the past grievence.

7sm

 

[shesulsa]

On the Native American situation, just as a noneloquent observer, visiting the reservation is a very melancholy experience. Beautiful stretches of land and a strong spiritual feel yield sharply to the occasional slum jutting up out of the landscape. Most of the buildings I saw on the Warm Springs reservation are not inhabitable yet are inhabited and they even have a casino. I had to wonder if the preservation of the tribal culture was trickling down to the tribe itself.

On Black culture in America ... Friends of mine left our circle to join gangs and some of them were dead before they reached legal age. My parents being from the south, I have a slight southern twang to my accent and have been asked about it and had the discussion on Southern history many times.

WARNING: SENSITIVE RANT AHEAD

So I've felt stuck between a generation who hired black people to labor for them and friends buried with bulletholes in them. My angry feelings led me to this assessment: it seems to me that white people no longer need to oppress black people, that there is no longer a 'need' for the KKK - black people are killing each other off without any help from whitey. So are Mexican-Americans and Native Americans.

For someone who believes so strongly in the ability to make mixed culture work in amazing ways, it is absolutely heartbreaking to witness the infighting of our brothers and sisters of the colors. And being white only lends me to being on the outside. I was not able to go in and pull my friends out of their gangs - if I tried I would not be here today. I am unable to go to the reservation and volunteer and help turn things around - that would involve decisions that only Native Americans can make.

For now, I will keep on volunteering for generic causes that help any and all races and abilities that come my way no matter of racial origin - I frankly don't care what skin people wear and it's none of my business. I have bigger fish to fry.

 

[arnisador]

We know slavery was bad and that it was a shamefull part of our past. But the calls for an apology are not about accepting the past and moving on, but in placing blame.

The other way to look at it is that by refusing to apologize the U.S. govt. has failed to accept blame. Asking the govt. to acknowledge its mistakes is about asking the govt. to accept the past and then move on.

Look at the calls for Japan to apologize. The people in its govt. today had nothing to do with Nanking, Korean 'comfort women', and so on. Yet, it's asked to apologize, and to truly accept the past by allowing an honest discussion of it in its schoolbooks.

You focus on individuals whose ancestors were mistreated accepting and moving on...the govt. must also accept and move on. Some say it has just moved on...

I am not necessarily in favor of an apology--it's not clear to me what it would accomplish--but the 'all those people are now dead' argument neglects the fact that the U.S. govt. is over 200 years old and continues to this day. Do nations have obligations? Can they do wrong? If so, should they make amends? It's not George W. Bush's fault, but he speaks for the federal govt. The federal govt., viewed as an entity like a corporation, surely can apologize. A company could still be found liable for crimes it committed years past, even if no one who worked there then still works there now...it's a continuing fictitious person, for legal purposes. Does anyone doubt that this is still the U.S. of A.? Was there a revolution that I didn't hear about?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Thank you.

 

[mantis]

Are you suggesting that I apologize for something I did not do, to someone that it did not happen to? :erg:

Perhaps the Egyptians should apologize to the Hebrews for that whole 'slave thing'.

well apologizing is not necessarily done by you stopping every black person and say "i am sorry for what my forefathers did to your race"
but it's done by admitting what's been done before is wrong and should not be done.
unfortunately a wide majority of the white community doesnt even think slavery was wrong to start with!

side note: today's egyptians are not the egyptians that enslaved the israelis. today's egyptians are arabic tribes that moved from arabia to egypt way after Moses, Jesus, or Muhammad (about 1400 years ago only).

 

[mantis]

The other way to look at it is that by refusing to apologize the U.S. govt. has failed to accept blame. Asking the govt. to acknowledge its mistakes is about asking the govt. to accept the past and then move on.

Look at the calls for Japan to apologize. The people in its govt. today had nothing to do with Nanking, Korean 'comfort women', and so on. Yet, it's asked to apologize, and to truly accept the past by allowing an honest discussion of it in its schoolbooks.

You focus on individuals whose ancestors were mistreated accepting and moving on...the govt. must also accept and move on. Some say it has just moved on...

I am not necessarily in favor of an apology--it's not clear to me what it would accomplish--but the 'all those people are now dead' argument neglects the fact that the U.S. govt. is over 200 years old and continues to this day. Do nations have obligations? Can they do wrong? If so, should they make amends? It's not George W. Bush's fault, but he speaks for the federal govt. The federal govt., viewed as an entity like a corporation, surely can apologize. A company could still be found liable for crimes it committed years past, even if no one who worked there then still works there now...it's a continuing fictitious person, for legal purposes. Does anyone doubt that this is still the U.S. of A.? Was there a revolution that I didn't hear about?

well it's different
between countries governments have to apologize
but within one country people have to do that.
dont forget that governments usually do not represent the people, and they usually represent a minority of supremists coming from a really high class that refuses to be gathered with the "common people" in one rank, or physical place!

 

[sgtmac_46]

The other way to look at it is that by refusing to apologize the U.S. govt. has failed to accept blame. Asking the govt. to acknowledge its mistakes is about asking the govt. to accept the past and then move on.

Look at the calls for Japan to apologize. The people in its govt. today had nothing to do with Nanking, Korean 'comfort women', and so on. Yet, it's asked to apologize, and to truly accept the past by allowing an honest discussion of it in its schoolbooks.

You focus on individuals whose ancestors were mistreated accepting and moving on...the govt. must also accept and move on. Some say it has just moved on...

I am not necessarily in favor of an apology--it's not clear to me what it would accomplish--but the 'all those people are now dead' argument neglects the fact that the U.S. govt. is over 200 years old and continues to this day. Do nations have obligations? Can they do wrong? If so, should they make amends? It's not George W. Bush's fault, but he speaks for the federal govt. The federal govt., viewed as an entity like a corporation, surely can apologize. A company could still be found liable for crimes it committed years past, even if no one who worked there then still works there now...it's a continuing fictitious person, for legal purposes. Does anyone doubt that this is still the U.S. of A.? Was there a revolution that I didn't hear about?

Say, an act of atonement such as the deaths of nearly a million Americans in the pursuit of ending the injustice of slavery, between 1861 and 1865? Just as Europeans began the institution of Slavery, many white Americans fought and died to end it nearly 150 years ago. Since then, many Americans have fought to progressively cure those wrongs.

Now, how much of an apology do we owe, STILL? The very notion that we owe an apology is built on a desire to blame the failures of individuals on a long dead institution. In other words, it's self destructive. Moreover, an apology would only serve as more of a crutch, in that it would allow people to further blame forces outside themselves for their lot, which doesn't help them in the least. Let it go, and move on.

Mark this one paid in FULL and lets get on with the 21st CENTURY.

 

[mrhnau]

unfortunately a wide majority of the white community doesnt even think slavery was wrong to start with!

Thats a bit of a broad statement. Your justification? sources? (won't be like ME and demand a retraction though )

 

[mantis]

Thats a bit of a broad statement. Your justification? sources? (won't be like ME and demand a retraction though )

im judging from a sample residing in Orange County, california! starting from cops too
i think there's more reasons to believe racism is still dominent than not. in fact i see no reasons to say racism has disappeared!
again that's what i meant by the problem is both arrogance and ignorance (im not calling you either by the way)
but people are too arrogant to admit their flaws, or they're too close-minded to understand what they do wrong.
hey hey.. reminds me!
didn u see the news when new orleans was evacuated? don tell me there's no racism.. please! (and to the degree of not admitting slavery is wrong)

 

[7starmantis]

The other way to look at it is that by refusing to apologize the U.S. govt. has failed to accept blame. Asking the govt. to acknowledge its mistakes is about asking the govt. to accept the past and then move on.

But that is assuming its the governments place to appologize...why? Why is the current U.S. Government the one to point the finger at and demand apologies from? Seems the U.S. Governmetn had a great deal of input in stopping slavery, maybe we should ask african americans to make a formal public show of appreciation to the current U.S. Government.

Truth is either one of those scenarios is asinine. We need to move past the expectations and demands and realize that our future rests in our hands, not in our past.

7sm

 

[Kreth]

im judging from a sample residing in Orange County, california! starting from cops too

Could you please explain how Orange County = "the wide majority of the white community"?

 

[mantis]

But that is assuming its the governments place to appologize...why? Why is the current U.S. Government the one to point the finger at and demand apologies from? Seems the U.S. Governmetn had a great deal of input in stopping slavery, maybe we should ask african americans to make a formal public show of appreciation to the current U.S. Government.

Truth is either one of those scenarios is asinine. We need to move past the expectations and demands and realize that our future rests in our hands, not in our past.

7sm

good point
that was actually my point
i say apologizing is done on the people's level
and not by saying sorry
but by admitting the mistakes that have been happening and actually correcting them, which i think is also done by erasing something called "black community", "white community", yellow or red (did i miss other colors? haha)
hmm.. maybe not feasible any soon!

 

[mantis]

Could you please explain how Orange County = "the wide majority of the white community"?

no it's not
but it's a "slice"
btw, it's a valid statistical way
you take a slice of the society and you can make a conclusion (yes there is an error margin, and the results MIGHT be tentative)
btw, california alone is responsible for 25% of the nation's hate crimes (racist crimes) and that's a statistic in 2004 done by zoghby foundation

note: dont get me wrong, i met racist asians blacks or hispanics, and i met the nicest whites too... there's always exceptions!