Black belt vs. Master vs. Grand Master

[hongkongfooey]

Not in all systems my ranks where one at a time and i did pay but in blood sweat and sometimes things that got broken. Practice knowledge and dedication to promotin the system through diligent hard work and training also where part of my price.

Now i do agree that the terms do not have the meaning in many systems that they had 30 or 40 years ago and that there are way to many people running around with titles and rank that they would nver have come close to getting back then. but that is how many systems have surrived by promoting people to higher rank to leave room beneath for students to get rank . If you only have a 6 dan system it is going to take so long for someone to reach 1st or 2nd to say nothing of the decades it will take to get 3d that the system will fade and die because people will go where they can see their progress marked by rank.

So true. I guess that I forget that sometimes, we have become a fastfood society.

HKF

 

[green meanie]

Not in all systems my ranks where one at a time and i did pay but in blood sweat and sometimes things that got broken. Practice knowledge and dedication to promotin the system through diligent hard work and training also where part of my price.

Now i do agree that the terms do not have the meaning in many systems that they had 30 or 40 years ago and that there are way to many people running around with titles and rank that they would nver have come close to getting back then. but that is how many systems have surrived by promoting people to higher rank to leave room beneath for students to get rank . If you only have a 6 dan system it is going to take so long for someone to reach 1st or 2nd to say nothing of the decades it will take to get 3d that the system will fade and die because people will go where they can see their progress marked by rank.

I agree and I think this does bring up a very good point. But, on the other hand.... (just to play the devil for a moment) maybe we wouldn't need advanced titles like master, grand master, and supreme grand master and being 'just' being a black belt would be enough and would still mean something if it was being given away so easily.

 

[jdinca]

I thinking something along the same lines.
My breakdown goes something like this.

A master paid someone to promote him from a 2nd dan to a 5th dan.

A grandmaster had the foresight to buy publishing software for his computer, to make the 10th dan certificate to go along with his red master's belt, in addition to joining for every sokeship board on the face of the earth.

HKF

Wow. You and I are in completely different martial arts worlds. You need to quit reading the DVD adds in IKF.

 

[jdinca]

I agree and I think this does bring up a very good point. But, on the other hand.... (just to play the devil for a moment) maybe we wouldn't need advanced titles like master, grand master, and supreme grand master and being 'just' being a black belt would be enough and would still mean something if it was being given away so easily.

Should we stop there? Or should we extend it to belt ranks to. How's about white, brown and black. No need for all those silly colors and degrees of black. Oh yeah, that's the way it was done before MA came to this country. :boing1:

 

[Fluffy]

Better yet, just give everyone a white belt........given 10-20 years it will turn black.....or a dark shade of brown anyway.

No, I'm only running the system that was handed down to me. Will I make some changes for my students? Already have......I allow 3-6 y/o'ds to test for higher levels of white belt. At 7 they may start at the regular levels. My students who become masters will probably fiddle with ut all as well.......that's how we make things better.

-Fluff

 

[green meanie]

Should we stop there? Or should we extend it to belt ranks to. How's about white, brown and black. No need for all those silly colors and degrees of black. Oh yeah, that's the way it was done before MA came to this country. :boing1:

Not a bad idea. White - green - brown - black are the only colors I use in my adult class. It's been working just fine for us.

 

[jdinca]

Not a bad idea. White - green - brown - black are the only colors I use in my adult class. It's been working just fine for us.

We actually use an extensive belt system. white - yellow - orange - orange II - purple - purple II - blue - green - 3 degrees of brown - black. As a green belt, I considered myself "King of the White Belts"!

Orange and Purple were split because we found we were losing students because those belts were taking so long to get through. As much as I hate to say it, all those colors make a difference in student motivation, retention.

Once at the instructor level, belt is de-emphasized and the journey and the goal of BB is emphasized. It has its own motivational qualities.

 

[green meanie]

We actually use an extensive belt system. white - yellow - orange - orange II - purple - purple II - blue - green - 3 degrees of brown - black. As a green belt, I considered myself "King of the White Belts"!

Orange and Purple were split because we found we were losing students because those belts were taking so long to get through. As much as I hate to say it, all those colors make a difference in student motivation, retention.

Once at the instructor level, belt is de-emphasized and the journey and the goal of BB is emphasized. It has its own motivational qualities.

I understand. Let me just add that the reason I do it the way I do is BECAUSE I CAN. I can appreciate the fact that you want and need to pass this on the way it was passed on to you. I'm not trying to find fault with that or belittle it in any way.

 

[jdinca]

I understand. Let me just add that the reason I do it the way I do is BECAUSE I CAN. I can appreciate the fact that you want and need to pass this on the way it was passed on to you. I'm not trying to find fault with that or belittle it in any way.

Not taking it that way at all. What you do makes sense.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

At what point does a black belt become a "Master" and when does a Master become a "Grand Master"?

Let me try to answer these. If my answer become a stupid ramble I apologize..

in the Dentokan system, the black belt levels aren't really master levels at all. To earn your black belt, you have to learn and be proficient at the Shodan-gi set of techniques (about 20++ techniques), then to earn 2nd degree black you have to learn the Nidan-gi, for 3rd Black you learn Sandan-gi, and for 4th black you learn Yondan-gi. So even a 4th Dan black is still considered as student level

After 4th Dan, you can take the "instructorship" level or the "shihan-gi", and if you pass this, you will get the teaching license called "shihan menkyo" which basically means "master instructor". So, no, you are not a Master in the sense that your student are your slaves. You are a "master instructor" never separate the master part from the instructor part. You are an instructor whom are authorized to teach advanced techniques ("master class"), hence, you are "master instructor".

After the "shihan menkyo" if you are so addicted to the Hakko-ryu of Dentokan, you will be allowed to learn the "menkyo kaiden" level, which is the rest of the teachings. Kaiden basically means "all transmissions", so after completing this, you have learn everything there is to learn from this school. Thus you are a "menkyo kaidensha" which roughly means "graduate".

No, you don't get grandmasterships here However it's a common practice to call the teacher of the "master instructors" as "grand master", which basically means "he is the teacher of us all". In our group, this can be used to refer to Mr. Roy Hobbs because he is the teacher of all of our teachers. However he never use that title so we refer to him as simply "Hobbs sensei".

My teacher Ben Haryo (who studied under Mr. Hobbs) also studied Wado-ryu under Mr. Taman. So when Mr. Haryo use the word "grandmaster" or "GM" he refer to Mr. Otsuka Jiro, the son of Wado-ryu founder Mr. Otsuka Hironori. Mr. Otsuka Jiro is the "grandmaster" because his father has chosen him as the grandmaster and successor of the Wado-ryu. Even though my teacher is now under an organization which broken away from Mr. Otsuka Jiro, he still out of respect refer to Mr. Jiro as the grandmaster.

Och I am rambling again! Sorry! must be too much eating American steak!

 

[jsdduke]

I suppose at the end of the day martial arts is not about Rank,but the process of daily training and self discovery. Some of us will never be considered Masters or Grand Masters,but the path taken is still an enjoyment and isn't that what it's all about? Only those who KNOW can recognize and determine Greatness (Your Peers). Labels are given by others to recognize your true Mastery.To proclaim it yourself is called having a big ego. Maybe I'm wrong,but just a thought.

 

[Fluffy]

I suppose at the end of the day martial arts is not about Rank,but the process of daily training and self discovery. Some of us will never be considered Masters or Grand Masters,but the path taken is still an enjoyment and isn't that what it's all about? Only those who KNOW can recognize and determine Greatness (Your Peers). Labels are given by others to recognize your true Mastery.To proclaim it yourself is called having a big ego. Maybe I'm wrong,but just a thought.

Hear Hear! Good post!

 

[green meanie]

Hear Hear! Good post!

Seconded. Welcome aboard!

 

[jdinca]

I suppose at the end of the day martial arts is not about Rank,but the process of daily training and self discovery. Some of us will never be considered Masters or Grand Masters,but the path taken is still an enjoyment and isn't that what it's all about? Only those who KNOW can recognize and determine Greatness (Your Peers). Labels are given by others to recognize your true Mastery.To proclaim it yourself is called having a big ego. Maybe I'm wrong,but just a thought.

Nicely put!

 

[Kacey]

I suppose at the end of the day martial arts is not about Rank,but the process of daily training and self discovery. Some of us will never be considered Masters or Grand Masters,but the path taken is still an enjoyment and isn't that what it's all about? Only those who KNOW can recognize and determine Greatness (Your Peers). Labels are given by others to recognize your true Mastery.To proclaim it yourself is called having a big ego. Maybe I'm wrong,but just a thought.

Very well put. There will always be someone bigger, stronger, faster, taller, better trained, higher rank - whatever distinction one cares to make. When I started TKD, I never expected to get past white belt... it was something I tried to because the guy I was dating talked me into it. Every day, I learn something new - from my sahbum, my peers, and, most especially, my students.

For various reasons, mostly involving graduate school, I didn't test for 7 years, but it didn't stop me from working out, instructing, and generally staying involved in my art. The people I have known in the past who attached significant importance to their own rank are, largely, in one of two places relative to their art: a) they have quit OR b) they are in an organization that promotes for reasons other than proficiency (to gain loyalty, because enough money has been paid, because s/he's been there long enough, etc.). I am more impressed by one of my students, who came from an independent organization and didn't test for years and continued to learn and train, because that's what he wanted to do (he started 18 years ago, and only tested for his I Dan about a 1-1/2 years ago, mostly due to the lack of someone of senior enough to test him) than I am with many higher-ranked black belts I have met.

A belt is a piece of died cotton - true rank is conferred by the respect of those around you.