Black belt vs. Master vs. Grand Master

[Navarre]

And I've found that to hold true every day. As my tag line says "Perception is Reality". I am aware of what I can do and have intrinsic belief in my abilities but I keep myself humble with his one simple statement. I keep it firmly in mind every time I feel the urge to count the stripes on my belt.

 

[Grenadier]

Different strokes for different folks. What holds true for one style may not necessarily be the same for another. For this discussion, I'll limit my contribution to the Japanese and Okinawan styles.

In general, all black belts hold a dan ranking. Holding a dan ranking, though, does not necessarily imply any particular level of mastery, only that the rank holder has attained a sufficient mastery of the basic fundamentals, and is capable of learning the more advanced techniques.

There are instructor ranks of all sorts. In general, a full fledged sensei, loosely translated to "one who has gone before," usually holds a 3rd dan ranking, or higher. Just because one has a 3rd dan ranking, though, does not automatically make him a sensei.

There can be instructor ranks below sensei. Sometimes such lower ranked (usually 1st or 2nd dan) instructors are sometimes called ko-sensei, or sempai, depending on the style. Even if one has a ko-sensei title, it's not unsual to call him just plain ol' "sensei" at times, or if a more senior instructor is addressing him, he may be called "ko-sensei."

There can be instructor ranks above sensei as well. The most common is known as "shihan," which is translated as "teacher of teachers." Where does that sensei to shihan rank border lie? That's not easy to answer, since some styles might make several eligible to become a shihan at 5th dan, while others might only give that title to the top person in the style.

Thus, very loosely speaking, the pecking order, from low to high would be:

Sempai / Ko-sensei
Sensei
Shihan

Remember, some styles might not even bother with a Sempai / Ko-sensei classification, and that there are certainly 1st dan sensei around. This does not imply anything at all, regarding the instructor's skill.


There are other honorary titles used for the more advanced sensei / shihan of a style. These are loosely classified as follows (please note, my definitions need not be the same as anyone else's), assuming that judan is the top rank:

Tachi: For instructors who are considered mid-level within a style. Usually 3rd or 4th dan.

Renshi: An more highly advanced instructor. Usually a 5th or 6th dan, and has demonstrated leadership and achievement within the style.

Kyoshi: A master instructor. Usually 7th or 8th dan, and has gone above and beyond what he already has done as a Renshi.

Hanshi: Professor equivalent. Usually a 9th or 10th dan. Some styles will only have one Hanshi within their system, others may have more.

It's also noted that some styles go from Renshi to Hanshi, skipping the Kyoshi level, and that other styles might have different rank requirements for the titles. For example, in certain Jiu-Jitsu styles, there are 4th dan Renshi, and 8th dan Hanshi. It's all simply a matter of the style's system.

 

[Navarre]

Yes, it is all completely relevant to the system. And, in that fact, essentially has no true relevance.

Call me ko-sensei in one of my styles, sensei in the other, and even shihan in my other system. I hold all three titles and it makes no difference. I am a unique individual with unique talents and limitations.

I can only offer all that I am and accept all I am willing to learn. Everything else is just a label.

 

[Brother John]

titles are OK....
but they only take you so far. Then, when you move or when you talk... those who "know" will Know You.
A master is often given that title when they achieve a certain rank.
For me?
It's when they are an authority in their art, with real knowledge/skill/insights and many many experiences. It's evident in everything they do.
Most often, these people don't need for me to READ their title or be told, I can just tell.
Sometimes the reverse is true: I'll read or hear their title.... then see them move or hear them speak, and know that it's nothing more than a word prefixing their given name.


The title I like best?
Martial Artist.
I'd just like to be able to live up to that!!

Your Brother
John

 

[Navarre]

The title I like best?
Martial Artist.
I'd just like to be able to live up to that!!

I think you just made a good statement toward showing that you already do, John.

 

[Drac]

Often it happens through flying

I read that it happens when flying over Japan or Korea..

 

[Fluffy]

For my group (Hwa-rang Taekwondo Federation - HTF)
4th Degree is Senior Instructor
5th Degree is Master
6th Degree is Sr. Master
7th Degree is Chief Master
8th Degree is Grandmaster
9th Degree is Grandmaster

Master Fluffy

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

This has got to be the silliest thread I've seen all year.

A "Master" is someone who's ego is so much bigger than all the other Black Belt's around that he needs a new title so that everyone will know he has been around longer than them.

A "Grandmaster" is someone who's ego is so much bigger than all the other Masters around that he needs a new title so that everyone will know he has been around longer than them.

Instead of Master or Grandmaster, I think people should get descriptinve titles based on their experience and physical accomplishements. Therefore, the only titles I have earned are "Old" and "Fat'.

 

[jdinca]

This has got to be the silliest thread I've seen all year.

A "Master" is someone who's ego is so much bigger than all the other Black Belt's around that he needs a new title so that everyone will know he has been around longer than them.

A "Grandmaster" is someone who's ego is so much bigger than all the other Masters around that he needs a new title so that everyone will know he has been around longer than them.

Instead of Master or Grandmaster, I think people should get descriptinve titles based on their experience and physical accomplishements. Therefore, the only titles I have earned are "Old" and "Fat'.

Gotta respectfully disagree. You're making a blanket statement that makes it look like a Master or Grandmaster bestows the title upon themselves for the purpose of feeding their own ego. Although that may be true in some cases, in many it is determined by the system, organization, or tradition and is considered an honor and recognition of the individuals accomplishments/contributions in the field of MA.

Do I think the terms can be abused and overused? Yes but certainly not in the everybodies guilty fashion that you imply. You've been around long enough that I'm pretty certain you know the difference.

 

[Fluffy]

This has got to be the silliest thread I've seen all year.

A "Master" is someone who's ego is so much bigger than all the other Black Belt's around that he needs a new title so that everyone will know he has been around longer than them.

A "Grandmaster" is someone who's ego is so much bigger than all the other Masters around that he needs a new title so that everyone will know he has been around longer than them.

Instead of Master or Grandmaster, I think people should get descriptinve titles based on their experience and physical accomplishements. Therefore, the only titles I have earned are "Old" and "Fat'.

That's disrespectful. A Master, or Grandmaster, is someone who is has a certain ammout of knowlege and has recieved a certian rank inside an art or org. As said before a Master is an instructor of instructors. A Grandmaster is an instructor of Masters.

Are you trying to flame?

"Master" Fluffy

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Of course I'm trying to flame. Master and Grandmaster are grossly overused terms. OK, so I'm out of line saying that many of these people pick their own title. Most have had underlings or "peers" bestow these titles. But my point remains true: the titltes are silly and exist only to feed egos.

 

[Rich Parsons]

This has got to be the silliest thread I've seen all year.

A "Master" is someone who's ego is so much bigger than all the other Black Belt's around that he needs a new title so that everyone will know he has been around longer than them.

A "Grandmaster" is someone who's ego is so much bigger than all the other Masters around that he needs a new title so that everyone will know he has been around longer than them.

Instead of Master or Grandmaster, I think people should get descriptinve titles based on their experience and physical accomplishements. Therefore, the only titles I have earned are "Old" and "Fat'.

OFK,

What if people call you said title, even if you ask them to just call you "Rich" in my case or by a simple name?

One has tried, but others do it out of respect or out of training from other systems.

Given this system, does this still make the person in question being called Master an egoist?

 

[Fluffy]

I dissagree, and not because I hold a master rank. The titles are used as a way we honor those who come before us. Like Sensai, Saboonim, or Kwan-in. Sure, are they overused a bit, there are many more Masters around now than 20 years ago. But I can tell you that the Masters and GM's I know all have earned the honor.

Master Fluffy

 

[jdinca]

Of course I'm trying to flame. Master and Grandmaster are grossly overused terms. OK, so I'm out of line saying that many of these people pick their own title. Most have had underlings or "peers" bestow these titles. But my point remains true: the titltes are silly and exist only to feed egos.

You seem a bit grumpy tonight.

If I'm not mistaken, these titles have been around for a long time and are a part of martial arts tradition. Just because they may be overused, doesn't mean they aren't appropriate for many who hold those titles. Your point is an opinion, open to disagreement, not an accepted fact.

I work in an industry that has a proud tradition surrounding rank. I'm very proud of mine, I worked damned hard to get it. Are there those who let their rank go to their heads? You betcha. But in no way does that cast a shadow on the vast majority who wear their rank with pride and are deserving of every bit of it. Martial Arts is no different.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

OFK,

What if people call you said title, even if you ask them to just call you "Rich" in my case or by a simple name?

One has tried, but others do it out of respect or out of training from other systems.

Given this system, does this still make the person in question being called Master an egoist?

Yes Rich, I have renounced titles and prefer to be called "Alan". But, I will answer to "Hey Dude!"

 

[hongkongfooey]

This has got to be the silliest thread I've seen all year.

A "Master" is someone who's ego is so much bigger than all the other Black Belt's around that he needs a new title so that everyone will know he has been around longer than them.

A "Grandmaster" is someone who's ego is so much bigger than all the other Masters around that he needs a new title so that everyone will know he has been around longer than them.

Instead of Master or Grandmaster, I think people should get descriptinve titles based on their experience and physical accomplishements. Therefore, the only titles I have earned are "Old" and "Fat'.

I thinking something along the same lines.
My breakdown goes something like this.

A master paid someone to promote him from a 2nd dan to a 5th dan.

A grandmaster had the foresight to buy publishing software for his computer, to make the 10th dan certificate to go along with his red master's belt, in addition to joining for every sokeship board on the face of the earth.

HKF

 

[Sapper6]

the title game is not restricted to any specific art or system. all of them prefer to use them, and many choose to misuse them just the same.

to say the title thing is "ignorant and useless" is as ignorant as the person saying it. just because said person disagrees with the ideal of naming certain degrees of black belts doesn't make it wrong. but it's the misuse of the naming system that brings discredit to the idea.

following OFK's reasoning...anyone who's ever had an instructor use the title, master, senior professor, grandmaster, whatever...should call that instructor up and tell him he's an egotistical retard searching for self-proclaimed glory. i wouldn't suggest it...

 

[hongkongfooey]

But, what if that master received his title through a sokeship board or some other rank exchange scheme? There are so many 10th degrees out there today, they can't all be real.

HKF

 

[Sapper6]

But, what if that master received his title through a sokeship board or some other rank exchange scheme? There are so many 10th degrees out there today, they can't all be real.

HKF

i guess you need to research who you study under then, or try to know more of a person before you befriend or discredit them.

i once owned an acura integra that took a dive not long after i bought it. perhaps i could make the statement, "all foreign cars are peices of ****". would that be a fair assumption...?

 

[tshadowchaser]

A master paid someone to promote him from a 2nd dan to a 5th dan.

Not in all systems my ranks where one at a time and i did pay but in blood sweat and sometimes things that got broken. Practice knowledge and dedication to promotin the system through diligent hard work and training also where part of my price.

Now i do agree that the terms do not have the meaning in many systems that they had 30 or 40 years ago and that there are way to many people running around with titles and rank that they would nver have come close to getting back then. but that is how many systems have surrived by promoting people to higher rank to leave room beneath for students to get rank . If you only have a 6 dan system it is going to take so long for someone to reach 1st or 2nd to say nothing of the decades it will take to get 3d that the system will fade and die because people will go where they can see their progress marked by rank.