Black belt qualities

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Yari




I just want to start off saying that I agree. But for the fun of discussion I'd like to ask a few questions about this. Befor I do that I just want to emphesize that I'm not trying to disrespect anybody.


What really is respect? How do you show respect? Would it be to shut up, or to show your meaning. Would it be that you agree only because the other is a senior? How do you show respect when the other person has a different set of rules for respect?

What is fairness? Doesn't it depend on what "rules" the person lives by, and if the rules are the same as yours?

And last:

By honor do you mean integrity(sp?). I think honor is something you get, but integrity si something you are (ie. walk the talk).

Just trying to start a discussion here to get people thinking.


/Yari

I would say, staying silent, and speaking when you deem it neccesary. Listen ,and learning can stave off problems.

Being fair? Just making sure no one is wronged, and being higher ranked should not figure in. Do the right thing.

Integrety, Just being honest with yourself, and to others. If not, it may come back to haunt you later.

The moral of the story here, as taught to me by another Instructor, "Think, before you act!":asian:

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by RCastillo



I'm hurt.I thought since you, and I were ITF, that we had something in common. Now I see that you, Seig, and Goldendragon are against me.:wah:

Against you? Come on up when Mr.C does, we'll do Vitamin D shooters!

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Seig

Against you? Come on up when Mr.C does, we'll do Vitamin D shooters!

Ok, it's gotta be ICE COLD, and choclate!

P.S. Don't forget the donuts!

 

[Seig]

Done!

 

[tonbo]

By "Respect", I mean to listen to answers when you ask questions, and not challenge the answers you get. If you are right and someone else is wrong, it will come out. It means to give some weight to the learning and experience of others, and to value what they have; to treat everyone as worthy of being treated well and fairly. It means holding people to a decent standard, and giving them the benefit of not having to justify their existence. In dealing with people with other beliefs or belief systems, it means listening to what they have to say and not judging them out of hand; to follow their customs or ways if it is not harmful to you or contradicts your beliefs (when you are in a situation where you need to follow other customs--in another dojo, etc.).

By "Honor", I basically meant holding a belief system where integrity is a BIG part of what you do. Yeah, I guess you could equate the two, but I would extend the definition to say that "honor" seems a bit more metaphysical or lofty. To me, having honor means not only being honest, but holding yourself to a high standard, morally. To have a personal code of "good" conduct, and to stick to it. Essentially, yes, it is the same as integrity to me, but I would say that "honor" is something a lot more people can understand, rather than integrity. Maybe it's me...

Anyway, we are dealing with fairly ephemeral terms.....and definitions will be quite personal, in most cases. These are just a couple of mine.......

Peace--

 

[Turner]

Discipline: You have to be able to show mental and physical discipline. You may not always *want* to do certain things (pushups, katas, etc.), but since they are part of the training, you should do them without complaint.

Respect: A martial arts student needs to recognize those around him/her and treat them fairly. You should have respect for the instructors and upper belts, as well as all other students generally.

Respect", I mean to listen to answers when you ask questions, and not challenge the answers you get. If you are right and someone else is wrong, it will come out. It means to give some weight to the learning and experience of others, and to value what they have; to treat everyone as worthy of being treated well and fairly. It means holding people to a decent standard, and giving them the benefit of not having to justify their existence. In dealing with people with other beliefs or belief systems, it means listening to what they have to say and not judging them out of hand; to follow their customs or ways if it is not harmful to you or contradicts your beliefs (when you are in a situation where you need to follow other customs--in another dojo, etc.).

Fairness: A sense of fair play is pretty mandatory. If you are willing to cheat your way to the top or step on others to get where you want to be in training, you have no place in a good school. You should be willing to get as you give.

Honor: Personal honor is a must-have. If you can't be honorable and take accountability for your own actions, you haven't arrived yet.

"Honor", I basically meant holding a belief system where integrity is a BIG part of what you do. Yeah, I guess you could equate the two, but I would extend the definition to say that "honor" seems a bit more metaphysical or lofty. To me, having honor means not only being honest, but holding yourself to a high standard, morally. To have a personal code of "good" conduct, and to stick to it. Essentially, yes, it is the same as integrity to me, but I would say that "honor" is something a lot more people can understand, rather than integrity

This is good stuff and definately are a part of a Black Belts qualities, but all to often we are told that a Black Belt lives this way and just leave it at that. Many students of Kenpo are such because they want to be the 'watchmakers' instead of 'ironworkers' and so a simply "Live this way" doesn't work. Why are these qualities necessary for a Black Belt? Why should we respect people? Why should we have discipline? Why should we believe in fairness? Why should we have integrity?

Many people will say 'because, if you don't you will regret it' and don't give any reasoning behind why a person should have virtue. There are many people that have an area of their life where they are devoid of the right virtues and they live their entire life without feeling guilty. So that doesn't work with me. For those of you that believe in a god that directs you to an after-life based on this life and the regret will occur there, that doesn't fly either. Why? Your god isn't looking to create rules for you to live by in order for you to have a greater chance of screwing up and getting the bum deal when you die. She/he/it has a reason for requiring those virtues. So why is it important for Mr. Average Joe Blo have character? Why is it even more important for Mr. Black Belt to have character? Why?

 

[brianhunter]

Kinda the way Im feeling turner...thats why I started this thread.........

I heard a story a long time ago I will try to retell it and I hope i get it right,

There is an ape house at a zoo with several apes in it..there is a stair way from the play area to which food is always thrown down.
One day an ape gets very curious and walks over to go up the stairs and gets blasted by fire houses and knocked back down.
The other apes see this happen and try it for themselves with the same result.
Every few years a young ape not seeing what has happened before will walk towards the stairway and all the "older experienced senior" apes grab the young ape and hold him back knowing in their minds what will happen when he goes up the stairs.
Those young apes grow up to be old apes and knowing the fear their fathers had for the stair case stop and hold other young apes from the eminent danger that awaits at the stairs.
Generation after generation stay away from the staircase not knowing exactly why but the simple paradigm of "its always been that way" When in fact over 30 years ago the staircase was changed to lead to a play area that the zoo keepers could not figure out why the apes would not go play in it.
Dont be an ape!

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by brianhunter
Out of the qualities that many believe a black belt should possess which do you guys feel is the most important

Actually having the black belt is pretty important. Otherwise your gi flys open.

 

[brianhunter]

funny gou way to simplify it...back to basics i must go he he

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by GouRonin



Actually having the black belt is pretty important. Otherwise your gi flys open.

I knew I was missing something........ Now I can quite tucking it in my pants, and hanging the belt over my diploma.... :rofl:


/Yari

 

[tonbo]

First off, thanks for putting things into perspective, Gou. It's kinda like Mr. Miyagi, huh? "Yes, I have black belt. Sears, $4.95. Helps hold up pants." (paraphrased, of course).

ROFL.....:rofl:

So why is it important for Mr. Average Joe Blo have character? Why is it even more important for Mr. Black Belt to have character? Why?

On to the other stuff.....

As humans, we like to think of ourselves as above common animals, and in most cases this is true. However, we do things that animals don't do to each other, generally: most species don't kill each other without reason, or torture each other. Most animals don't sit idly by while others of their species starve and go without shelter. They also don't have social structure that allows them to help each other out or to pool resources beyond a simple family unit.

We, as humans, do. We also tend to try and stratify ourselves in society: " I am better than so-and-so, but not as good as X." One of the ways that we stratify ourselves is by morality: we choose to be on the side of good, nuetral or "evil" by our actions. Most people tend to ally on the "good" side, and try to do what they can to help others. This may be for religious reasons, feelings of duty, altruism, or whatever. Some people *intend* to set a good example, others just "fall into" it.

I think that character is something that makes us feel better about ourselves, or to help us distinguish ourselves from the common "evil rabble". As for what the reasons are that Black Belts are supposed to have character, I think it stems from the beliefs that teachers are supposed to have a higher character from most others: they are imparting wisdom, and should be revered (this is the conception, anyway). I think it's more the position than the belt, but that is, again, a personal thought.

Finally, we tend to require character from our leaders, generally. We *expect* icons and leaders to lead "decent" lives, and be somewhat of a moral guidepost....even when we know that they are human, just like us. It still kinda rattles people when something like the Lewinsky scandal comes up, or when a well-liked actor dies from drugs. Black Belts are part of that "mythology"; by "definition", they are supposed to be protectors, mentors, guides, teachers......trusted to teach and to help us "find the path".

Hopefully, I'll get there someday.........I still don't see myself as anyone who can impart great wisdom.......

Just my 2 yen's worth.....

Peace--

 

[brianhunter]

for someone who cant impart wisdom Id say you nailed it!!!!

 

[Nightingale]

I agree.

Also, I think a really big part of martial arts understanding that needs to be (and usually is) taught by the black belts is when and how to use martial arts, and more importantly, when and how NOT to use it. A black belt needs to have the ability to explain this to others.

 

[Blindside]

As humans, we like to think of ourselves as above common animals, and in most cases this is true. However, we do things that animals don't do to each other, generally: most species don't kill each other without reason, or torture each other. Most animals don't sit idly by while others of their species starve and go without shelter. They also don't have social structure that allows them to help each other out or to pool resources beyond a simple family unit.

Heh, sorry Tonbo, the wildlife biologist in me is going to take exception!


"However, we do things that animals don't do to each other, generally: most species don't kill each other without reason, or torture each other."

Actually predators tend to kill/displace other predators just to prevent competition for future possible resources. Wolves displace coyotes, coyotes kill fox, lions kill leapords etc. In other cases there are instances of killing for no apparent reason, such as juvenile delinquent elephants killing rhinos. While the idea of torture is debatable, watching an orca pod "play" with a seal would probably qualify from the seals perspective.

"Most animals don't sit idly by while others of their species starve and go without shelter. They also don't have social structure that allows them to help each other out or to pool resources beyond a simple family unit."

Most animals need some sort of social bond to go to the aid of another animal. It is one of the reasons why social structures in animals is so fascinating. It is only the rarest of cases that you hear about intra-species aid. A wolfpack is alot more complicated than a simple family unit as you have multiple genetically unrelated wolves raising cubs of the alpha pair. This type of social structure is also seen in Harris hawks. Elephants are known to do elaborate meet and greet behavior when encountering distant relatives in herds that don't meet often. Troops of primates do have elaborate social structures between unrelated individuals to the point where a threatened individual will take young relatives of the aggressor hostage to prevent being harmed. I don't think I'm going to go into detail about how bonobos use sex to smooth over problems in a relationship or to get something they want (like an orange).

Anyway the point is the animal world is a bit more complicated than that. Talk about an off topic post!!!


Salute,

Lamont

 

[Blindside]

OK, back on topic.

One of the traits that we require for black is the ability to teach. We have a requirement for teaching hours and it is actually a graded portion of the test (we do all testing individually). If you don't want to teach you will never reach black in our school, that is the simple fact. We currently have a very talented green belt that can beat the snot out of me (and alot of other black belts), but unless he decides to become a teacher, he is as high as he will ever go.

For us, a black belt is someone who has the desire and ability to pass on the art.

Lamont

 

[jeffkyle]

There are alot of aspects that i see as important to not only being in Kenpo, or being a Martial Artist, but in Life as well.
I think it is important to remember where you came from (when training is concerned) and if you get to be a higher ranking individual not to forget to show as much respect (however you define it) to the students as they show to you. That is how you would do it in life. Just because you have been training longer, and know more material doesn't make you "better" than the students in the fact that you deserve their respect as an individual. Of course it can be demanded for the reason that you may be able to kick their tail, but that is definitely not how strong friendships and relationships with others are built.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by tonbo

First off, thanks for putting things into perspective, Gou. It's kinda like Mr. Miyagi, huh? "Yes, I have black belt. Sears, $4.95. Helps hold up pants." (paraphrased, of course).

ROFL.....:rofl:

J.C. Penny, 3.98. In Okinawa, belt mean no need rope, hold up
pants.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Now back to waxing my truck!

:asian:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by tonbo

I think there are a couple which should be viewed as "most important":

Discipline: You have to be able to show mental and physical discipline. You may not always *want* to do certain things (pushups, katas, etc.), but since they are part of the training, you should do them without complaint.

Respect: A martial arts student needs to recognize those around him/her and treat them fairly. You should have respect for the instructors and upper belts, as well as all other students generally.

Fairness: A sense of fair play is pretty mandatory. If you are willing to cheat your way to the top or step on others to get where you want to be in training, you have no place in a good school. You should be willing to get as you give.

Honor: Personal honor is a must-have. If you can't be honorable and take accountability for your own actions, you haven't arrived yet.

These are a couple that I think are important. Of course, you also have things like compassion, modesty, courtesy, perserverence, etc., etc. that should be part of a martial artist's being.....but I won't go into those right now.....I've rambled enough already. However, I think there is a pretty extensive list that makes up a martial artist's toolbox....

Peace--

All the above is cool (particularly fairness and respect, which for me is a bare minimum now), but we all realize that the reality is that regardless of belt we are human and because of that flawed. Some of the qualities won't be imparted or stressed in certain people when training and if they weren't there when they started training, it's gonna be hard to beat it into them after they've gotten their black (of course, it's not unheard of ), there are some higher ranking instructors that will put ya in your place regardless of your rank. I know Mr. Kelly is one that will chop a tree down to size and you respect him for that level of brash honesty.

Some of the instructor qualities I look for are humility (through participation), participation, ability to do and not just talk about it, depth of knowledge of the system, fairness and respect. As a grown man many of the qualities you spoke of were already imparted in me growing up and in my training in Kenpo as a teenager. Today I look for content (charater & curriculum), I acknowledge that my goal is to find someone to help me get to where I want to be in my growth as a student of the arts.

jb:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

:asian: