Black Belt Exchange Program?

[ShortBridge]

I have been invited to display my rank when visiting other clubs, but I have never once done it.

It's a personal decision and agreement between the involved parties. But it does make a statement either way. You can guess where I come down, but as long and everyone involved agrees, I see no issues.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I see no problem recognizing a black belt's rank.

I think this is like the dance two guys may do when it comes to picking up a check for dinner - but in reverse. The sensei may offer to let the guest keep his black belt rank, while the other declines and wears white. For myself, everyone from a different style (unless maybe I know them to be a bona fide 5th degree or higher black belt) starts as white, as I have done on occasions. An unwillingness to go in as a white belt tells me something of the person's priorities and ego. But that's just me. To each, his own. I'll let skill, not belt color, tell the story.

 

[MadMartigan]

For myself, everyone from a different style (unless maybe I know them to be a bona fide 5th degree or higher black belt) starts as white, as I have done on occasions. An unwillingness to go in as a white belt tells me something of the person's priorities and ego.

For me it depends on why the person is at class.
If they're just visiting for a class or 2. Wear your regular uniform and belt. You're welcome as my guest.
If they're there to become my student, then that's different. Then the above quote sums it up.

 

[Urban Trekker]

If they give in and wear a white belt, but take every opportunity to let everyone know that they're a black belt at the other dojo they came from, then there really isn't a point.

If we do TKD to karate, as Hanshi suggested earlier; I look at it like this: if a TKD guy wears his black belt to a karate dojo; the karateka at the dojo are going to see a black belt with hangul embroidered all over it, and mentally assign whatever weight to it that they believe it should hold in a karate dojo. They don't even have to wear a karate gi; they could just continue to wear a TKD dobok.

 

[Urban Trekker]

I think this is like the dance two guys may do when it comes to picking up a check for dinner - but in reverse. The sensei may offer to let the guest keep his black belt rank, while the other declines and wears white. For myself, everyone from a different style (unless maybe I know them to be a bona fide 5th degree or higher black belt) starts as white, as I have done on occasions. An unwillingness to go in as a white belt tells me something of the person's priorities and ego. But that's just me. To each, his own. I'll let skill, not belt color, tell the story.

Although a kancho should be able to run his dojo however he or she sees fit, IMO, rank should be assigned to fully matriculated students only. In other words, if a student with a black belt from another style is there to learn your whole curriculum and get a black belt in your style, sure, start them off as white. But not if they're on some six-month exchange program to learn your katas or spar with karateka from your style. Again, not telling you how to run your school; that's just how I'm looking at it.

If you require a black belt from another style to wear a white belt, there are ways for that student to still signify that they're a black belt. For example, purposely wearing an old beaten up heavyweight gi that has belt color stains around the waist of the gi top; perforations from previous school patches, or if you require them to wear your school patch, they could always purposely have the patches sewn off the center so that the old perforations can be still be seen.

Let's not underestimate the pettiness.

 

[_Simon_]

Although a kancho should be able to run his dojo however he or she sees fit, IMO, rank should be assigned to fully matriculated students only. In other words, if a student with a black belt from another style is there to learn your whole curriculum and get a black belt in your style, sure, start them off as white. But not if they're on some six-month exchange program to learn your katas or spar with karateka from your style. Again, not telling you how to run your school; that's just how I'm looking at it.

If you require a black belt from another style to wear a white belt, there are ways for that student to still signify that they're a black belt. For example, purposely wearing an old beaten up heavyweight gi that has belt color stains around the waist of the gi top; perforations from previous school patches, or if you require them to wear your school patch, they could always purposely have the patches sewn off the center so that the old perforations can be still be seen.

Let's not underestimate the pettiness.

OR prior to class, as you're all warming up on your own, do a reeeeeally advanced form, complete with VERY loud yells and a very furrowed brow. You know, to let everyone know that you're quite an advanced martial artist, and quite seriously devoted.

 

[Yokozuna514]

OR prior to class, as you're all warming up on your own, do a reeeeeally advanced form, complete with VERY loud yells and a very furrowed brow. You know, to let everyone know that you're quite an advanced martial artist, and quite seriously devoted.

Or you can let your technique speak for itself . Regardless of the belt around your waist, it should be fairly evident to everyone on the floor. White belt Zenkutsu dachi Oi Tsuki should be different from a Shodan Zenkutsu dachi Oi Tsuki.

 

[MadMartigan]

Or you can let your technique speak for itself . Regardless of the belt around your waist, it should be fairly evident to everyone on the floor. White belt Zenkutsu dachi Oi Tsuki should be different from a Shodan Zenkutsu dachi Oi Tsuki.

I've lost count of the hundreds of times I've said something along those lines.
I truly believe that most of the information I would need to determine whether someone is performing at a black belt level can be seen by watching them perform the very 1st white belt pattern.

 

[Urban Trekker]

I've lost count of the hundreds of times I've said something along those lines.
I truly believe that most of the information I would need to determine whether someone is performing at a black belt level can be seen by watching them perform the very 1st white belt pattern.

Yeah, but there's no rebellion in that!

 

[ShortBridge]

Interesting discussion that I think pretty well illustrates why so many teachers are not more welcoming to resident guests.

 

[cane56]

Ok, hear me out. This idea literally just came to me 10 minutes ago, so it's not fully thought through.

A resounding majority of us on this site believe there is great value in cross training. A lot of us also believe that other local martial arts teachers are not our enemies (I've met the other 'cobra kai' minded type and believe them to be in the minority). I think a structured broadening of experience might be a cool idea.

With that said; what are your thoughts on a Black Belt exchange program with another local school? (It could be high ranked colored belts maybe, but 1st Dan BB seemed best to me).

What does everyone think of the following?

- After 1st Dan, the respective teachers send their recently minted BB to each other's school for maybe 6 months. How long would be appropriate? Should they wait a year before starting this program?

- Should the exchangee act as a guest (retaining their home rank) or wear a white belt and start from the beginning?
(I would go with white belt, but think this decision might depend on how similar the styles are).

- My first inclination would be to arrange such an exchange between dissimilar arts (striking with grappling, or internal with hard style, etc). Thoughts?

- Should each student continue to pay tuition to their home club, or to their billet school?

- Like I said, this is not a fully crafted idea. Is this whole thing complete rubbish and destined to collapse upon itself like a dying star?
What pitfalls do you see as either hurdles, or insurmountable obstacles?

Lot of us have done this! I wouldn't suggest this until you understand your style and that takes many years. But in the 70s and 80s I would find someone that knows what I don't. We would learn from each other. I never knew how hard a welterweight boxer could hit! Then I trained with number 8th in the world. Or how heavy a wrestler is. Or the deception of a student of Kung Fu. Then when your 64 and your kicks aren't as crisp as they used to be. You still learn, and you never stop. The most comfortable feeling I get is when I'm in a Dojo

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok, hear me out. This idea literally just came to me 10 minutes ago, so it's not fully thought through.

A resounding majority of us on this site believe there is great value in cross training. A lot of us also believe that other local martial arts teachers are not our enemies (I've met the other 'cobra kai' minded type and believe them to be in the minority). I think a structured broadening of experience might be a cool idea.

With that said; what are your thoughts on a Black Belt exchange program with another local school? (It could be high ranked colored belts maybe, but 1st Dan BB seemed best to me).

What does everyone think of the following?

- After 1st Dan, the respective teachers send their recently minted BB to each other's school for maybe 6 months. How long would be appropriate? Should they wait a year before starting this program?

- Should the exchangee act as a guest (retaining their home rank) or wear a white belt and start from the beginning?
(I would go with white belt, but think this decision might depend on how similar the styles are).

- My first inclination would be to arrange such an exchange between dissimilar arts (striking with grappling, or internal with hard style, etc). Thoughts?

- Should each student continue to pay tuition to their home club, or to their billet school?

- Like I said, this is not a fully crafted idea. Is this whole thing complete rubbish and destined to collapse upon itself like a dying star?
What pitfalls do you see as either hurdles, or insurmountable obstacles?

I've actually toyed with the idea that getting a BB from me would require cross-training in something, so I'd be very much in favor of something like this. How it's handled probably depends what the purpose is. If someone sends me their BB to learn NGA (or, more specifically, my NGA-based curriculum), they'd start as a white belt and work their way up as far as they prefer. If the BB is sent to me to learn some principles to influence their primary training, then I'd treat them as a long-term visitor, and suggest they wear what they'd normally wear for training (assuming it's suitable to our activities), including any rank insignia from their primary art.

Whether to do disparate arts or similar ones depends what the purpose is. Send me the average adult Karateka for 6 months of training, and I'll limit what I teach, because they'll likely never get good at taking falls (most folks over 30 take a year, if they ever get good at them). So they'd get my approach to striking (probably quite different from theirs) and what grappling I can transmit without them needing good falls. Send me someone who already has grappling (and falling) experience, and I'd focus differently for them, including finding where what we do is different from their approach, so they can explore that area more. And if their school doesn't teach striking, they'd get a lot of that from me.

As for the billing part, if you exchange equal numbers (or nearly so, anyway), it wouldn't matter much.

All that said, the period of training at the other school, and when that should happen, is really dependent upon many things. I don't think we could find a common rank to use, since a BB from me would take 7-10 years, and someone else's might take less than 3. If we're trying to exchange at a similar level, we'd need to figure out somplace where there's relative parity, and that depends on more than just relative experience at each school. Period of training could be anything from a couple of months to a full year (the latter would probably only work for really passionate students, who also have a real interest in the other art).

This was part of why I was teaching in a school with another art. I had the vision of eventually having a class dedicated to cross-training between the arts, on an invitation basis.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This arrangement would require schools to partner with each other. I don't see why students couldn't pick where to cross-train. It would give them more options (instead of being limited to the ones in the agreement), and it would eliminate a lot of these questions. If there is an agreement, then the students should pay tuition to whatever school they're learning at. It wouldn't make sense for school owners to enter into this arrangement otherwise.

OP is basically talking about including specific cross-training in the curriculum. To me, this isn't any different from two instructors from different styles opening a school together and designing an advanced class that draws on both styles.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To exchange instructors may be easier than to exchange students for the following reasons:

- Only that instructor needs to travel between schools. It's easier to invite a Stanford University professor to visit MIT. It's harder to send all MIT students to Stanford University.
- If a student doesn't like that style, he doesn't have to attend that class.
- There will be no belt issue there.
- ...

I think that's harder. It means the entire class (or perhaps the entire school) is now studying the other art for a bit, rather than just those who choose to enter the exchange program. It also means there's no mixing of the students, which to me is a large part of the benefit of cross-training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The hard part is going to be getting all of those schools to agree to the exchange program, and agree on the details of how it works. Then, what if the student wants to go learn Judo or Boxing?

I don't think they all have to have the same approach. If 4 of us join together to do something like this, we could each specify what the incoming exchange student's experience would be at our school, and that becomes part of what the student considers in selecting. Maybe they like your approach of complete immersion (have to learn your kata and your way of doing), or maybe they prefer my approach of adaptation (I learn a bit about what they do, and show them where our principles fit and differ, so they can play with more variations). Maybe they choose to do both, at different times.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is why I said earlier that I think this would only work among different styles of the same martial art.

Here's an example why I say this. I have some limited experience with Isshin-ryu from the early 90's. One thing I remember about it in particular is that when doing an inside block, the back of the fist faces outward instead of forward like in most other styles of karate.

If someone from another style of karate is in the exchange program at an Isshin-ryu dojo, they're not there to learn all the nuances, such blocking with the back of their fist facing in a different direction from how they were taught in their style. They'd simply be there to learn techniques and maybe katas that are absent in their own style, and to practice kumite to learn how to defend against techniques that are absent in their own style.

Now how we would translate this to a situation between two completely different martial arts; for example, boxing and judo; yeah, you'd basically be starting at the beginning to learn the curriculum, in which case maybe the boxer wearing a white belt in the judo dojo is appropriate. I wouldn't see the point in this anyway, because the boxer may as well just sign up for judo just like anyone else in this case. No need for an exchange program.

Why wouldn't they want to learn a different approach to blocking? I think that's part of the value - being exposed to different approaches to the same thing, so you can better understand the principles at play.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'd say that this fairly normal in a certain segment of TCMA, anyway. It is build more around IRL relationships with other teachers and I wouldn't say it happens at scales, but I've arranged for a senior student to spend time with another teacher, sometimes in another system and I've hosted someone else's senior student as well. There are a lot of examples of this happening at a certain point with people who I respect.

I think it's a good practice. It is built on trust and respect, so I'm not sure about a "sign-up sheet" type system.

I definitely think this is best where there's a strong relationship and trust between instructors. It makes all the trouble spots much easier to handle.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's an interesting idea for sure. There is much that can be learned from an exchange such as the way you laid it out. Practically speaking you are dealing with numerous small businesses that may or may not be inclined to work together cohesively. For instance, let's say you were able to get 5 schools of different styles to cooperate in this manner. What if you have 4 schools of striking let's say that want to send their BB to the 'grappling' school. Someone would need to manage the flow of people and that person may run into 'difficulties' administering the 'requests' that will come in for 'preferences' on where to train, whom to train with, what time they can train......blah, blah, blah. Who will also handle all the 'Karen' complaints ?

I do think the idea has some merit though and I think that BB's themselves should perhaps be encouraged to find their own 'arrangements' to further their interests but in the end, it will benefit them the most and that is something that they should aspire to do themselves, imho.

I think the benefit of the exchange idea is that the instructors on both sides know enough of the other side to do more than just teach what they always would. They can point out specific differences, give suggestions on things to take back or not take back to their primary school, and even perhaps give feedback to each other (among the instructors) of things they think the person would enjoy or benefit from. And it also makes a ready audience for multi-discipline seminars.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Why wouldn't they want to learn a different approach to blocking? I think that's part of the value - being exposed to different approaches to the same thing, so you can better understand the principles at play.

I think that would defeat the purpose of limiting this program to black belts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have been invited to display my rank when visiting other clubs, but I have never once done it.

It's a personal decision and agreement between the involved parties. But it does make a statement either way. You can guess where I come down, but as long and everyone involved agrees, I see no issues.

I've done this both ways. Mostly, it depends how the instructor wants to present me. If they want to present me as a visiting dignitary (so to speak), I wear rank. If they prefer to have me blend into the class, I put on a white belt. I typically have both in my bag at all times, anyway. And I don't much care which someone does when they come to visit me.