Black Belt Exchange Program?

[MadMartigan]

Ok, hear me out. This idea literally just came to me 10 minutes ago, so it's not fully thought through.

A resounding majority of us on this site believe there is great value in cross training. A lot of us also believe that other local martial arts teachers are not our enemies (I've met the other 'cobra kai' minded type and believe them to be in the minority). I think a structured broadening of experience might be a cool idea.

With that said; what are your thoughts on a Black Belt exchange program with another local school? (It could be high ranked colored belts maybe, but 1st Dan BB seemed best to me).

What does everyone think of the following?

- After 1st Dan, the respective teachers send their recently minted BB to each other's school for maybe 6 months. How long would be appropriate? Should they wait a year before starting this program?

- Should the exchangee act as a guest (retaining their home rank) or wear a white belt and start from the beginning?
(I would go with white belt, but think this decision might depend on how similar the styles are).

- My first inclination would be to arrange such an exchange between dissimilar arts (striking with grappling, or internal with hard style, etc). Thoughts?

- Should each student continue to pay tuition to their home club, or to their billet school?

- Like I said, this is not a fully crafted idea. Is this whole thing complete rubbish and destined to collapse upon itself like a dying star?
What pitfalls do you see as either hurdles, or insurmountable obstacles?

 

[drop bear]

There is a system out there for tourists called the globe trotters. Or mat surfing.

 

[skribs]

There are quite a few issues I see with this:

1. Not all schools have belts. Of those that do, not all black belts are created equal. A black belt in BJJ is going to take several years, where a black belt in TKD could take a couple years. And what about the boxers?
2. Rank should not transfer (unless it normally would). There is no reason a TKD guy should have any rank in BJJ unless he's also trained BJJ, and vice versa. Once again, what about boxers? They have no rank.
3. This arrangement would require schools to partner with each other. I don't see why students couldn't pick where to cross-train. It would give them more options (instead of being limited to the ones in the agreement), and it would eliminate a lot of these questions. If there is an agreement, then the students should pay tuition to whatever school they're learning at. It wouldn't make sense for school owners to enter into this arrangement otherwise.

Overall, this seems like it's built to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Students can already cross-train at other gyms. If their school frowns on them doing so, then those schools wouldn't likely enter into these types of agreements anyway.

 

[MadMartigan]

Not all schools have belts. Of those that do, not all black belts are created equal. A black belt in BJJ is going to take several years, where a black belt in TKD could take a couple years. And what about the boxers?

To clarify. My intention in the idea is just to round out experience. Not to get a 2nd BB. (Hence the 6 month timeframe).
The thought was more to take that time away from the original art, and focus explosively on the temporary new one.
A grappler or a striker would get some good experience in such a timeframe.

(I see no reason that a boxing gym would be ineligible. The idea is about senior, experienced students. That line could be drawn wherever the involved parties saw fit).

 

[Flying Crane]

I think people decide for themselves what they are interested in training. Being “sent” by their teacher to another school might not be what they signed up for. Some people might love it, others not so much.

 

[_Simon_]

I quite like the idea, very cool

Like you touched upon, it would be a great idea moreso for the experience and perspective, rather than attaining any rank. Like a cultural exchange program, I stayed with a family in China for a bit, not so that I could become Chinese haha but for the experience and learning.

Obviously there may be a few snags and logistics, but I think it's a cool idea. I would even think just a few months is good. And maybe not a fresh black belt, but maybe 2nd degree or so?

 

[Urban Trekker]

I think this sounds like a good idea, if we're talking about exchanges between schools of different styles of the same art. For example, an exchange between Goju-ryu and Shotokan.

The reason I say this is because there are katas in other styles that I'm really impressed by and would love to learn, that my style doesn't have (for example, seisan). The wrist and bone conditioning in Uechi-ryu, I'd also love to experience.

I don't think the wearing of a white belt is necessary if everyone else knows that you're there because of the exchange program, and the other students are fully aware that they can do the same program once they get their black belt.

Or if the kanchos just can't find it within themselves to allow exchange students to wear their black belts, then at least all the kanchos in the consortium can maybe agree on particular belt design that distinguishes the exchange students from the regular students.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To exchange instructors may be easier than to exchange students for the following reasons:

- Only that instructor needs to travel between schools. It's easier to invite a Stanford University professor to visit MIT. It's harder to send all MIT students to Stanford University.
- If a student doesn't like that style, he doesn't have to attend that class.
- There will be no belt issue there.
- ...

 

[MadMartigan]

for the experience and perspective, rather than attaining any rank. Like a cultural exchange program,

Exactly what my thinking was. Less French Immersion class, more like living in France for a few months.
A seminar only gives some highlights. Training in the actual environment could give a greater understanding and appreciation for where another art is coming from... and from my experience; always results in a better understanding of the original art you came from.

Perhaps the word 'send' I used was the wrong one. Maybe not a mandatory component of training... but a highly recommended one.

Perhaps best done either pre-black belt or before applying for 2nd dan.

 

[Urban Trekker]

To exchange instructors may be easier than to exchange students for the following reasons:

- Only that instructor needs to travel between schools. It's easier to invite a Stanford University professor to visit MIT. It's harder to send all MIT students to Stanford University.
- If a student doesn't like that style, he doesn't have to attend that class.
- There will be no belt issue there.
- ...

That's an idea, but a separate one that would achieve different objectives.

I don't think @D Hall was suggesting that all of the black belts move en masse to the same dojo to train in that style. I think they would all be given their own choice, based on their own desires and self-assessed needs. For example, there are three black belts at an Isshin-ryu dojo in the exchange program. One can chose the local Shotokan dojo, one can choose the local Wado-ryu dojo, and the other can choose the local Goju-ryu dojo. Keyword is "local," so that the Stanford/MIT scenario won't be an issue. And, again, it gives student choices.

Like I said before about the belt issue, the kanchos within the consortium would need to come to an agreement so that it's the same across the board. I don't think white belts are a good idea, because they're not there to learn the whole curriculum from the beginning. So if it can't be black, then it should at least of a common design shared by all the dojos within the consortium that distinguishes exchange students from the rest.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It is an interesting thought. Here's what my experience has been.

First, you have people who sometimes visit for one or two workouts and who come from another style or simply another dojo. We welcome them, they wear their belt from their style. They might try some of our techniques or katas; we might try one of theirs. No one is expected to do things differently than they were trained. If they're interested in how we do things, we're happy to demonstrate.

Second, someone moves to our dojo from another style or our style but a different dojo. Over time, we expect them to learn our methods, which can be difficult to break old training habits. But if they choose to join our dojo, they must learn what we teach.

I am not sure what would happen if someone simply visited for an extended period of time without joining our dojo. I would imagine there might be skill transfer both ways, but when they went back to their own dojo, how would that affect their training in their own style?

We have members who have cross-trained in other styles. Sometimes they show us interesting things they have learned.

 

[skribs]

That's an idea, but a separate one that would achieve different objectives.

I don't think @D Hall was suggesting that all of the black belts move en masse to the same dojo to train in that style. I think they would all be given their own choice, based on their own desires and self-assessed needs. For example, there are three black belts at an Isshin-ryu dojo in the exchange program. One can chose the local Shotokan dojo, one can choose the local Wado-ryu dojo, and the other can choose the local Goju-ryu dojo. Keyword is "local," so that the Stanford/MIT scenario won't be an issue. And, again, it gives student choices.

Like I said before about the belt issue, the kanchos within the consortium would need to come to an agreement so that it's the same across the board. I don't think white belts are a good idea, because they're not there to learn the whole curriculum from the beginning. So if it can't be black, then it should at least of a common design shared by all the dojos within the consortium that distinguishes exchange students from the rest.

The hard part is going to be getting all of those schools to agree to the exchange program, and agree on the details of how it works. Then, what if the student wants to go learn Judo or Boxing?

 

[MadMartigan]

I am not sure what would happen if someone simply visited for an extended period of time without joining our dojo. I would imagine there might be skill transfer both ways, but when they went back to their own dojo, how would that affect their training in their own style?

I've had the same experience with similar arts. Even other TKD schools will chamber blocks from different positions etc. I'd guess that other Karate styles would have similar overlap differences between each other.

I've found these issues were not such an issue with completely different arts. With no similarities between tkd and bjj, there's no potential for habits to bleed over. I found that ground fighting experience made my tkd kicks better and more confident (not so worried about what happens if you get taken down, because you can fight there too).

Similarly with boxing or wresting and any TMA. They're so different, that it's new information and not conflicting.

The more different the arts are, the more value I see.

 

[Urban Trekker]

The hard part is going to be getting all of those schools to agree to the exchange program, and agree on the details of how it works. Then, what if the student wants to go learn Judo or Boxing?

This is why I said earlier that I think this would only work among different styles of the same martial art.

Here's an example why I say this. I have some limited experience with Isshin-ryu from the early 90's. One thing I remember about it in particular is that when doing an inside block, the back of the fist faces outward instead of forward like in most other styles of karate.

If someone from another style of karate is in the exchange program at an Isshin-ryu dojo, they're not there to learn all the nuances, such blocking with the back of their fist facing in a different direction from how they were taught in their style. They'd simply be there to learn techniques and maybe katas that are absent in their own style, and to practice kumite to learn how to defend against techniques that are absent in their own style.

Now how we would translate this to a situation between two completely different martial arts; for example, boxing and judo; yeah, you'd basically be starting at the beginning to learn the curriculum, in which case maybe the boxer wearing a white belt in the judo dojo is appropriate. I wouldn't see the point in this anyway, because the boxer may as well just sign up for judo just like anyone else in this case. No need for an exchange program.

 

[_Simon_]

This is why I said earlier that I think this would only work among different styles of the same martial art.

Here's an example why I say this. I have some limited experience with Isshin-ryu from the early 90's. One thing I remember about it in particular is that when doing an inside block, the back of the fist faces outward instead of forward like in most other styles of karate.

If someone from another style of karate is in the exchange program at an Isshin-ryu dojo, they're not there to learn all the nuances, such blocking with the back of their fist facing in a different direction from how they were taught in their style. They'd simply be there to learn techniques and maybe katas that are absent in their own style, and to practice kumite to learn how to defend against techniques that are absent in their own style.

Now how we would translate this to a situation between two completely different martial arts; for example, boxing and judo; yeah, you'd basically be starting at the beginning to learn the curriculum, in which case maybe the boxer wearing a white belt in the judo dojo is appropriate. I wouldn't see the point in this anyway, because the boxer may as well just sign up for judo just like anyone else in this case. No need for an exchange program.

Yeah very well said.

I think it makes sense to visit the substyles. Also of note I think is in playing with and experimenting with those techniques from other styles, seeing how they relate to what you know.

I came from a certain style and foundation, and in my trialling around for a new club I'd notice the little differences in the way they do certain techniques. AND also the new techniques they practiced which I hadn't learned.

In both cases I found I was able to adapt fairly quickly after a bit of drilling, and I think this is because of the principles that have been instilled in me being the same across the board, even in these other styles. The body intelligence was ingrained and the techniques came much easier, but as a result it broadened my perspective on different ways to apply principles.

Found it very educational

 

[ShortBridge]

I'd say that this fairly normal in a certain segment of TCMA, anyway. It is build more around IRL relationships with other teachers and I wouldn't say it happens at scales, but I've arranged for a senior student to spend time with another teacher, sometimes in another system and I've hosted someone else's senior student as well. There are a lot of examples of this happening at a certain point with people who I respect.

I think it's a good practice. It is built on trust and respect, so I'm not sure about a "sign-up sheet" type system.

 

[Yokozuna514]

It's an interesting idea for sure. There is much that can be learned from an exchange such as the way you laid it out. Practically speaking you are dealing with numerous small businesses that may or may not be inclined to work together cohesively. For instance, let's say you were able to get 5 schools of different styles to cooperate in this manner. What if you have 4 schools of striking let's say that want to send their BB to the 'grappling' school. Someone would need to manage the flow of people and that person may run into 'difficulties' administering the 'requests' that will come in for 'preferences' on where to train, whom to train with, what time they can train......blah, blah, blah. Who will also handle all the 'Karen' complaints ?

I do think the idea has some merit though and I think that BB's themselves should perhaps be encouraged to find their own 'arrangements' to further their interests but in the end, it will benefit them the most and that is something that they should aspire to do themselves, imho.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I do think the idea has some merit though and I think that BB's themselves should perhaps be encouraged to find their own 'arrangements' to further their interests but in the end, it will benefit them the most and that is something that they should aspire to do themselves, imho.

I agree. Achieving a black belt is the beginning of learning. Once having gotten their base style down well, say 3rd degree, they should be looking for opportunities to further their knowledge on their own accord. By this time, they should be advanced enough to know how to integrate new technique/concepts into their own style. Often, this will provide a new perspective and lead them to reinterpret some of their original style's techniques/forms in a new light. The exchange idea is good in principle, but the black belt should take the initiative to seek out new knowledge in the way he wants.

That said, if the sensei has a friend from another style, inviting him over to conduct a seminar is a great idea. Later, the sensei can speak to the differences, similarities, and application to their own system. This would be a much simpler method of introducing new ideas to the advanced student.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I agree. Achieving a black belt is the beginning of learning. Once having gotten their base style down well, say 3rd degree, they should be looking for opportunities to further their knowledge on their own accord. By this time, they should be advanced enough to know how to integrate new technique/concepts into their own style. Often, this will provide a new perspective and lead them to reinterpret some of their original style's techniques/forms in a new light. The exchange idea is good in principle, but the black belt should take the initiative to seek out new knowledge in the way he wants.

That said, if the sensei has a friend from another style, inviting him over to conduct a seminar is a great idea. Later, the sensei can speak to the differences, similarities, and application to their own system. This would be a much simpler method of introducing new ideas to the advanced student.

For the most part we agree on who should be driving the cart towards more knowledge. I wouldn't necessarily pick an arbitrary point at which the base style is 'understood' as we both know learning one style could take a lifetime to master. That being said, an individual who wishes to branch off to learn another art should be encourage and if they can negotiate an internship or fellow study at another school that has ties with their school, that is even better.

What would really be interesting to me is to have these folks come back after a year to see what they have been able to appropriate and work with their base style. In theory, that should benefit the school if their new skills or understanding from learning a different discipline will add to the general knowledge of the school. That is if the director of the school is open to incorporating said knowledge.

 

[Hanshi]

In my humble opinion if the exchange is like-to-like (karate, any style, to any karate/tkd or judo & jujitsu to judo & jujitsu) I see no problem recognizing a black belt's rank.