Black Belt Boot Camp

[Gerry Seymour]

Are you saying a black belt means something in his dojang?

It means something everywhere. What differs is the "something".

 

[Steve]

Meaning?

I took it as a joke, Gerry. I get the sense that some folks are getting a little worked up. Let’s all remember that this is supposed to be fun.

 

[Steve]

Are you saying a black belt means something in his dojang?

You can’t talk about belts in his school. It’s immature and shallow.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In the context of this thread, what we all want to know is whether or not these "boot camp black belts" would be as good as their traditional counterparts? There are plenty of ways to find out but, as a control, I think that the best way would be an established martial arts association experimenting with a boot camp that would be taught by some of its most reputable instructors. When that association has its annual camp, they put them in the competitions and see how they fare against their traditional counterparts.

Until this actually happens, we're all speculating.

You'd have to have a pretty broad competition for that. If you just have them in a sparring competition, you're looking at one area (fight effectiveness, and perhaps limited by the ruleset). If there are other common expectations for BB, you'd have to essentially have them compete on all those areas, including overall knowledge of the art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is my point. You are inserting your own expectations into what a black belt is and what success of the boot camp is. Your expectation is that they can do well in the sporting competitions. So, you need to see results of sporting competition. But, if someone else only needs rote memorization of the patterns... then no competition is necessary. They either memorized it or not.

First you have to decide on what "black belt" means. Then you can decide on whether the boot camp can succeed on meeting your expectations. But other people will have other expectations... which will effect how they view the results of the boot camps.

Even if it's just forms, they could still compete on those, to see how the two groups compare.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Bill Gate doesn't need to borrow money from the bank. You can only learn how to borrow your opponent's force when you are tired.

I disagree. Borrowing force can be learned when you're not tired. In fact, there's a whole range of exercises that I know that work specifically to that purpose.

It is, however, much harder to get yourself to NOT use your own force so much when you're not tired, so being tired makes it easier to learn some of those principles.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I took it as a joke, Gerry. I get the sense that some folks are getting a little worked up. Let’s all remember that this is supposed to be fun.

That's why I asked the meaning.

 

[drop bear]

Meaning?

Dirty Dog convinced me that TKD belts are not that important.

 

[Flying Crane]

Even if it's just forms, they could still compete on those, to see how the two groups compare.

I don’t like forms competition as a gauge of skill. Forms tend to become performance art and lose their usefulness as a tool for training. I actually think any type of competition misses the mark as a useful evaluation for this kind of thing.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I don’t like forms competition as a gauge of skill. Forms tend to become performance art and lose their usefulness as a tool for training. I actually think any type of competition misses the mark as a useful evaluation for this kind of thing.

The idea is that the black belts who were made through traditional means are the established standard.

How do the boot camp black belts measure up against the standard? Only one way to find out...

 

[Flying Crane]

The idea is that the black belts who were made through traditional means are the established standard.

How do the boot camp black belts measure up against the standard? Only one way to find out...

Not in my opinion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don’t like forms competition as a gauge of skill. Forms tend to become performance art and lose their usefulness as a tool for training. I actually think any type of competition misses the mark as a useful evaluation for this kind of thing.

I'm not very fond of it, either. But in the hypothetical competition proposed, the point is to see how the bootcamp fares against traditional training in creating BBs. You'd have to compare them on all relevant criteria, and in many styles that includes forms. Of course, the "competition" in this area could be just a big group test.

 

[drop bear]

Not in my opinion.

What would be your alternative?

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm not very fond of it, either. But in the hypothetical competition proposed, the point is to see how the bootcamp fares against traditional training in creating BBs. You'd have to compare them on all relevant criteria, and in many styles that includes forms. Of course, the "competition" in this area could be just a big group test.

I still think it’s just missing the mark though. You could test them on the formal curriculum (including forms) and it is possible that they would do well. Memorizing movement sequences is not difficult. But the deeper understanding and ability to use it creatively and spontaneously is not as straight forward. That can often get missed in a test. I think a test is often misleading. This would be more like cramming to pass a test without really developing a lasting understanding of the method.

To me, the whole idea of a boot camp like this to take someone from zero to shodan in 12 weeks just doesn’t pass the BS sniffer. On its face it is a silly proposal. That does not mean that all boot camps are useless or stupid. I am sure they can be effective for the right people if the goals are appropriate and the proper background and foundation is in place. But not zero to shodan in such a short period of time.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I still think it’s just missing the mark though. You could test them on the formal curriculum (including forms) and it is possible that they would do well. Memorizing movement sequences is not difficult. But the deeper understanding and ability to use it creatively and spontaneously is not as straight forward. That can often get missed in a test. I think a test is often misleading. This would be more like cramming to pass a test without really developing a lasting understanding of the method.

To me, the whole idea of a boot camp like this to take someone from zero to shodan in 12 weeks just doesn’t pass the BS sniffer. On its face it is a silly proposal. That does not mean that all boot camps are useless or stupid. I am sure they can be effective for the right people if the goals are appropriate and the proper background and foundation is in place. But not zero to shodan in such a short period of time.

Civilian to Soldier in 10 weeks. Civilian to Marine in 13 weeks. That boy in high school who's working up the courage to ask his crush to the prom right now as we speak could possibly be in Ukraine fighting off the Russians before Christmas (if things were to escalate to that level by then). In that short amount of time, they have to learn marksmanship, individual tactical maneuvers (moving under fire, etc), first aid, CPR, digging a foxhole, protection against chemical and biological weapons, land navigation, etc.

I'm just not seeing how, if this can be done in such a short amount of time, making a black belt can't be.

 

[Flying Crane]

Civilian to Soldier in 10 weeks. Civilian to Marine in 13 weeks. That boy in high school who's working up the courage to ask his crush to the prom right now as we speak could possibly be in Ukraine fighting off the Russians before Christmas (if things were to escalate to that level by then). In that short amount of time, they have to learn marksmanship, individual tactical maneuvers (moving under fire, etc), first aid, CPR, digging a foxhole, protection against chemical and biological weapons, land navigation, etc.

I'm just not seeing how, if this can be done in such a short amount of time, making a black belt can't be.

So? I still don’t buy it.

 

[Hot Lunch]

So? I still don’t buy it.

Simple math. If A is greater than B, and A takes x amount of time to produce, then the time it takes to produce B is equal to or less than x.

 

[Flying Crane]

Simple math. If A is greater than B, and A takes x amount of time to produce, then the time it takes to produce B is equal to or less than x.

You are welcome to come up with any story that helps you believe in this, if you find yourself so attached to the idea. You are welcome to believe what you wish. I find it unrealistic.

 

[Steve]

I'm not very fond of it, either. But in the hypothetical competition proposed, the point is to see how the bootcamp fares against traditional training in creating BBs. You'd have to compare them on all relevant criteria, and in many styles that includes forms. Of course, the "competition" in this area could be just a big group test.

You guys are getting to the nut of it here, which is how do we know if the program is successful? If this is TKD, and there are TKD competitions, then I'm not sure I understand why this is so hard?

Look, if there was some kind of accelerated BJJ program that purports to get folks to blue belt in 12 weeks (roughly analogous to black belt in some arts), it would be fairly simple to figure out if the program is successful or not. You just simply have your folks compete in an event as a blue belt and evaluate their performance. I wouldn't even set the bar at "they have to win or this doesn't work." Rather, did they perform well? Were they roughly performing at what you and other objective observers would consider competitive at that level?

I still think it’s just missing the mark though. You could test them on the formal curriculum (including forms) and it is possible that they would do well. Memorizing movement sequences is not difficult. But the deeper understanding and ability to use it creatively and spontaneously is not as straight forward. That can often get missed in a test. I think a test is often misleading. This would be more like cramming to pass a test without really developing a lasting understanding of the method.

To me, the whole idea of a boot camp like this to take someone from zero to shodan in 12 weeks just doesn’t pass the BS sniffer. On its face it is a silly proposal. That does not mean that all boot camps are useless or stupid. I am sure they can be effective for the right people if the goals are appropriate and the proper background and foundation is in place. But not zero to shodan in such a short period of time.

And in an activity where there are no clear, measurable standards for evaluating performance, because there is no clearly defined purpose for the training, it's understandable that evaluating a program like this would be difficult and may even be perceived as threatening to the status quo. I'm not at all surprised you don't buy it. Totally understandable. What does a black belt (or equivalent) in your style actually represent in clear, measurable, objective terms?

As said earlier, this isn't a monolith. We're talking big picture about whether a program like this COULD be done in theory. I think the answer is sure, why not? We have literally seen examples of it in martial arts in this thread, and I've shared at least three or four analogous programs. We know that intensive programs can work. Whether individual programs are successful or not would depend on the structure of the program, the goals for the program, the intended outcomes, and the competence of the instructor... among other things. But in general? It's not even debatable.

And this thread is also some discussion about whether this specific program could work. The answer to that, IMO, is maybe, but we don't have enough information to evaluate it. See above.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I suspect that a 3 month, 6 hours, 7 days per week program is intended for young competitive athletes who are already physically talented and in great shape. (A typical couch potato would most likely end up injured or burned out within a week or two.) I suspect that the sort of person who comes in with the physical and mental resources to survive such a program would end up with skills easily comparable to a typical hobbyist who earns their black belt training 2-3 hours per week for 3-4 years.

An interesting question to consider would be what the optimum training schedule would be to get the most bang for the buck in terms of skill/ability/personal development per training hour.

Just to illustrate the point, I'll start with the absurd extremes. Suppose you have 400 hours to devote to learning TKD. You could spend 10 hours per year for 40 years - and you would achieve almost nothing in terms of usable skill or ability. Contrariwise, you could train 80 hours per week for 5 weeks. This would most likely end in injury, but even if you survived it, the results would be suboptimal because your brain and body wouldn't have time to make the adaptations which are being demanded of them. Remember - you don't get stronger while you exercise. You get stronger while your body is resting and recovering from exercise. Likewise, a significant portion of skill development occurs during downtime while your brain processes the experiences you have been feeding it and forms new neural pathways. The optimum schedule lies somewhere in between these extremes.

Leaving aside practical concerns like having to work for a living, family responsibilities, etc and assuming that the student has all the necessary motivation for whatever training regimen is designed, then the main determining factor would seem to be the time needed by the individual to physically recover from workouts and to mentally absorb/process/integrate new information and skills. Youth, health, and physical conditioning will help with the first, experience with the second. A 20 year old pro fighter can benefit much more from a short-term concentrated boot camp than a 40 year old, non-athletic, couch potato with no prior experience.

For this reason I suspect that to get the best min-maxed results from an intensive program you either need to have it personalized for an individual (as fight camps typically are) or else pre-screen attendees to make sure they meet the parameters that your program is optimized for. One person might get the most bang for the buck out of 5 hours per day 7 days a week, while another might get more per-hour benefit out of 2 hours per day 5 days a week.

If you are set on getting the most benefit out of a short term boot camp, then it would probably good to remember the benefits of light physical training and mental training. Depending on the individual's level of physical conditioning, you can only get in so many hours of hard work per week before you start to break the body down faster than it can rebuild itself. But you can fit in more hours of light technical training and add more time with pure brain training, like watching and analyzing fight videos. There are also limitations on how much information the brain can absorb and process within a limited span, but at least if you exceed that limit, you won't cause injury and the excess information can actually end up planted in the brain like long-term seeds that sprout at a later point in the student's development.