"What does it feel like to get your black belt?"

[Tames D]

So it was your first 5 years of hard work training that made you what you are today, more so than the subsequent 35 years of training?



From the standpoint of your current self who has been training for 40 years, you don't see your 35-year-ago self who had only 1/8th your current experience as a beginner? I've only been training for 34 years, but I very much consider my earlier self with 5 years of training to have been a beginner. It's a matter of perspective, to be sure.



Okay. Any particular reason why? It seems like just a matter of perspective. To a 10-year-old, a 20-year-old seems old. To a 50-year-old, a 20-year-old seems very young. To a new white belt, a shodan with 5 years of training seems very advanced. To someone who has been training for 30+ years, that same shodan will seem more like a beginner.

Personally, I wouldn't say that my first black belt was the "start" of my journey so much as one particular milestone out of many during the very early stages of my journey. Then again, I don't take the saying in question exactly literally.

You're right Tony. It's all about perspective. I gave my perspective and you gave yours. Who's right, who's wrong?
A quick question out of curiosity: do you consider Mike Trout a beginner?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You're right Tony. It's all about perspective. I gave my perspective and you gave yours. Who's right, who's wrong?
A quick question out of curiosity: do you consider Mike Trout a beginner?

I had to look up who Mike Trout is - I'm not a baseball fan.

I would strongly suspect that any Major League Baseball player (even a rookie) has spent significantly more hours developing his baseball skills than most newly-promoted karate black belts have spent practicing their arts. So in terms of time spent on learning his craft, he's probably not a beginner. I'm open to correction from someone who knows more about the sport.

As far as our respective perspectives, I don't know if either of us is "right" or "wrong". I was just asking questions to try to understand your viewpoint better. It seemed unusual from someone with 40 years of experience.

 

[Tames D]

I had to look up who Mike Trout is - I'm not a baseball fan.

I would strongly suspect that any Major League Baseball player (even a rookie) has spent significantly more hours developing his baseball skills than most newly-promoted karate black belts have spent practicing their arts. So in terms of time spent on learning his craft, he's probably not a beginner. I'm open to correction from someone who knows more about the sport.

As far as our respective perspectives, I don't know if either of us is "right" or "wrong". I was just asking questions to try to understand your viewpoint better. It seemed unusual from someone with 40 years of experience.

Mike Trout is 24 years old. He has less time in baseball than you do in martial arts. Yet you consider yourself a beginner, but not him? Mike is the best player in baseball at this time. and you're right, he's not a beginner. I'm just not sure where this beginner stuff is coming from. A beginner is someone who is just starting out in my opinion. Again, just my perspective.
Ok, you're not a baseball fan. Do you consider Ronda Rousey a beginner? I assume you know who Ronda is.

 

[Tames D]

And Chris, why are you attacking me? I'm not a newbie that will put up with your BS.

 

[Tames D]

be·gin·ner
/bəˈɡinər/
noun

1. a person just starting to learn a skill or take part in an activity.
2. a person who is beginning something
3. one that begins something; especially: an inexperienced person or doing something for the first time

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Mike Trout is 24 years old. He has less time in baseball than you do in martial arts. Yet you consider yourself a beginner, but not him? Mike is the best player in baseball at this time. and you're right, he's not a beginner. I'm just not sure where this beginner stuff is coming from. A beginner is someone who is just starting out in my opinion. Again, just my perspective.
Ok, you're not a baseball fan. Do you consider Ronda Rousey a beginner? I assume you know who Ronda is.

Nah, I don't really consider myself a beginner in martial arts at this point. I do consider myself to have been a beginner (by my current standards) back when I got my first black belt.

Looking at Mike Trout's bio, he started playing baseball in Little League, age 9 or under. He played in high school, the minor leagues, and now the major leagues. He's been playing at least 15 years, 6 of those as a professional. At a conservative estimate, he's got his 10,000 hours in, working to polish his craft. I wouldn't consider anyone with that background to be a beginner.

Ronda Rousey started training at age 11, putting in long hours of training under high-level coaching and competing at the highest level in the world. Even though I've been training more years than she has been alive, she's got way more hours on the mat than I do. At this point she's probably got 20,000 hours of training under her belt. (I've been training twice as many years as she has and I might possibly have half as many hours training as she has. In addition, her training has been more intense than mine has.) I don't think anyone considers her to be a beginner.

How is any of this relevant to the question at hand? When you got your black belt, did you have 10,000+ hours of training? Were you competing professionally at the highest levels? If so, then you certainly weren't a beginner. Great! I think it's safe to say that the overwhelming majority of newly promoted black belts don't have anything close to that level of experience.

I've answered your questions. If you feel like answering the one I asked you in my earlier post, I'm still curious to understand your position better.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Hmm, to be honest, reading this, I wonder why you'd attend a school that you don't value the skills you gain from, the ranking structure (and what you feel it is representative of), and that you, in your words, don't feel any pride in your achievements within…

I don't feel pride because there are lots of poor black belts in TKD. I tried a club last year with literally the worse BB I have ever seen. I think he had a mental/physical issue because he seemed not all there and uncoordinated (I don't say that judgmentally, just factually). So the belt itself is nothing to be proud about IMO. Rather I think you have to look at yourself to be proud, and for me, I feel I had some better kicks as a color belt when I worked less and practised more.

In terms of the school selection, it was the only one with BB testing fees in the $300 range (it increased to $380 by the time I tested) and no 12 month contract. With that said, I think many of the schools are very similar in terms of the teaching material

Doing Muay Thai will improve your TKD? Is that the same as learning Italian to improve your Swahili? I mean… much of what you're listing is not TKD… it's a different approach, a different context, a different methodology…

I don't think I ever said MT will improve my TKD. I think it will provide some insight into other situations outside WTF TKD. For instance, I tried a ITF TKD club and for the first time did a jab/cross/slip/hook combo. I never EVER saw that in my WTF TKD classes. Definitely good to try something new.

so what does having your name on the KKW website have to do with it? Are they not going to put your name up if you do muay Thai too early? And, if you have no pride in your rank, or your achievement, or in the skill you feel you've attained… why are you waiting to have it advertised?

Schools tend to accept BB more than color belt rankings. I've heard of schools not giving the KKW certificate if you leave right after the test. So I will wait. In terms of pride, that's 1 of the 7 deadly sins right? If someone asks I'll say I'm a BB, but I'll also add that it doesn;t mean I am Bruce Lee. I am better than some, worse than others.

Leaving off the gaps in the maths there (hmm… that might explain the second part), are you suggesting that it's not possible to fail to graduate from high school? Really?

I think you would literally have to be mentally handicapped to fail out of high school IF YOU TRIED. A high school diploma is critical to doing anything (even barber school where I live) so schools want everyone to be able to graduate. The marks and courses may be different for a genius vs a bottom student, but they both graduate. Maybe it's different where you live, but where I live there are all sorts of options for people who can't handle the regular classes but still want a high school diploma.

And yes, there are plenty of places where you simply can be not good enough (in various ways) to get a black belt… regardless of what you believe.

If you say so. I personally haven't seen it at KKW/WTF TKD schools.


Finally I am not sure why you seem to be taking things personally. If BB is a big source of pride for you, great. I was only asking how people felt when they got there BB, not trying to convince everyone that everyone should have the same ambivalence as me.

 

[Hyoho]

I took a few dan grades to go to Japan and upon arriving was begginer due to the double standard. Stuck with the kiddies practice for a while. so the BB I had taken were I bit of an anticlimax. I suppose my Sensei could have prepared me more but he just chuckled and knew what was going to happen. A matter of going to a serious dojo and getting my medicine. Which brings up the point of how hard do you you push your students to achieve a BB. Some will take it others are content to just train. You get out of it what you put in. The harder you work for a belt the more satisfied you will be when you get it as recognition of what you have achieved.

We do our best and enjoy what we do. No one should feel embarrassed at being a beginner. On the contrary if we start another art we should seriously consider ourselves a beginner. The worst thing of all is having the habits of one art leech into another if you want to make any progress.

In Japan minimum requirements for some jobs is Sandan.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yes Chris. I felt insulted.

Okay. Honestly, then… get over it. You were still very much at the beginning of your journey. You don't like having that (perceived) level of skill as being a "beginner"? Fine. I'd still consider you one (at that point).

And Chris, why are you attacking me? I'm not a newbie that will put up with your BS.

Where was the attack, Tim? Believe me, asking if you really felt insulted (and I wasn't the only one to ask) is far from an attack… especially considering some of the suggestions you've made about me previously… which you refused to back up, clarify, or qualify… or issue a retraction or apology for.

Believe me, I can turn this into an attack… but I'd rather do that outside of a public thread.

be·gin·ner
/bəˈɡinər/
noun

1. a person just starting to learn a skill or take part in an activity.
2. a person who is beginning something
3. one that begins something; especially: an inexperienced person or doing something for the first time

And, from this perspective, a Shodan can very easily be described as either definition 1 or 2. Again, though, it's all a matter of perspective.

I don't feel pride because there are lots of poor black belts in TKD. I tried a club last year with literally the worse BB I have ever seen. I think he had a mental/physical issue because he seemed not all there and uncoordinated (I don't say that judgmentally, just factually). So the belt itself is nothing to be proud about IMO. Rather I think you have to look at yourself to be proud, and for me, I feel I had some better kicks as a color belt when I worked less and practised more.

So where did you drop the ball? If your kicks were better before, what changed in your approach to them? What changed in your practice? Why are you practicing less? And is that the fault of the belt and your rank?

In terms of the school selection, it was the only one with BB testing fees in the $300 range (it increased to $380 by the time I tested) and no 12 month contract. With that said, I think many of the schools are very similar in terms of the teaching material

So… you chose the school based on a budget… and you're wondering why the skill level isn't at the range you want it to be?

Look, I work in retail (electrical goods)… I had a customer ask for the cheapest 50 inch TV we had… I showed him a cheap, low-end Chinese no-name TV, and he said "So, this is a good TV, is it?" "Oh, good gods no, it's the cheapest. If you want good, pay for it".

I don't think I ever said MT will improve my TKD. I think it will provide some insight into other situations outside WTF TKD. For instance, I tried a ITF TKD club and for the first time did a jab/cross/slip/hook combo. I never EVER saw that in my WTF TKD classes. Definitely good to try something new.

Er… you never saw a boxing combo in a TKD class? Uh… because it's not TKD? It's an expression of boxing that had been imported…

What it's going to come down to is what you're training for. If the aim of the school is to train for TKD competition, training things outside of TKD is rather redundant and time-consuming… if you're training for generic "fighting skills", you'll get people bringing in a range of things that aren't part of the art, because they think they "fill a gap"… except they move you away from the actual system itself.

Schools tend to accept BB more than color belt rankings. I've heard of schools not giving the KKW certificate if you leave right after the test. So I will wait. In terms of pride, that's 1 of the 7 deadly sins right? If someone asks I'll say I'm a BB, but I'll also add that it doesn;t mean I am Bruce Lee. I am better than some, worse than others.

Okay… but you haven't really answered the question. For one thing, it's quite rare for schools to be more accepting of black belts than anything else… and most who try it have a false idea of what it means (based on their personal experience and perspective), and quickly recant. But the point is, if you're leaving, what does it matter if you're on their website? Your black belt only means anything in your school… you walk out the door, you're back to nothing. Sure, you still have the skills… but the rank is only an indication of where you are in the hierarchy and progression of that school… you may be a black belt there, but you walk into my school, and you're a mukyu (no rank)… same as if I walk into, say, an Aikido school (where I'm unranked).

So, if your'e leaving, why do you need to wait for the listing on the website? Is it just for your own sense of achievement? And, if so, doesn't that go against what you've posted here?

I think you would literally have to be mentally handicapped to fail out of high school IF YOU TRIED. A high school diploma is critical to doing anything (even barber school where I live) so schools want everyone to be able to graduate. The marks and courses may be different for a genius vs a bottom student, but they both graduate. Maybe it's different where you live, but where I live there are all sorts of options for people who can't handle the regular classes but still want a high school diploma.

Sure, there's a lot of support, and schools want everyone to pass… but people still don't. Some drop out. Some don't make the grade, so to speak. That's reality, no matter your beliefs on the matter.

If you say so. I personally haven't seen it at KKW/WTF TKD schools.

Well, let's suggest my experience might be a bit wider.

Finally I am not sure why you seem to be taking things personally. If BB is a big source of pride for you, great. I was only asking how people felt when they got there BB, not trying to convince everyone that everyone should have the same ambivalence as me.

This isn't me taking anything personally… I haven't said anything about my personal attitude towards my black belt… honestly, I have more pride in promoting students to that level than I have in my own rank… what I'm interested in, though, is in understanding the motivations of others… and yours intrigued me. Both in what you said, and in why you posted in the first place. You're quite simply advertising your disenchantment in your school and your lack of appreciation of what you've achieved… which reflects a lack of respect in what your school teaches. And I find that both odd and interesting.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Mike Trout is 24 years old. He has less time in baseball than you do in martial arts. Yet you consider yourself a beginner, but not him? Mike is the best player in baseball at this time. and you're right, he's not a beginner. I'm just not sure where this beginner stuff is coming from. A beginner is someone who is just starting out in my opinion. Again, just my perspective.
Ok, you're not a baseball fan. Do you consider Ronda Rousey a beginner? I assume you know who Ronda is.

Of course she is. Call her an old timer, to her face, and watch what happens.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

So where did you drop the ball? If your kicks were better before, what changed in your approach to them? What changed in your practice? Why are you practicing less? And is that the fault of the belt and your rank?.

I am pracitising less due to work. I'm now about 10 pounds heavier which is not too large, but it's an indication that I am doing less of all my exercises including TKD.

So… you chose the school based on a budget… and you're wondering why the skill level isn't at the range you want it to be?.

More the lack of a 12 month contract, since I was sure if I would be able to continue in TKD regularly once I started a new job. The thing I liked about the style was that it was "kicking, kicking, and more kicking" and I wanted to get better at kicking as opposed to poomsae or predetermined one step sparrings.

What it's going to come down to is what you're training for. If the aim of the school is to train for TKD competition, training things outside of TKD is rather redundant and time-consuming… if you're training for generic "fighting skills", you'll get people bringing in a range of things that aren't part of the art, because they think they "fill a gap"… except they move you away from the actual system itself..

I'm training for fun and interest. I find other techniques outside TKD to be both interesting and practicial. And I'd like to see more of the problems of using tkd techniques outside of tkd rules....to understand better the pluses and minuses of the tkd techniques.

But the point is, if you're leaving, what does it matter if you're on their website?

I was referring to the Kukkiwon website, not the school website.
Poom Dan SEARCH
And yes, that ranking matters to other KKW/WTF schools.

You're quite simply advertising your disenchantment in your school and your lack of appreciation of what you've achieved… which reflects a lack of respect in what your school teaches.

It has nothing to do with my school. I just am not as good as I was when I practised more. I think that pride comes feeling that you did very well, and I knew in the recent months leading up to my testing that I would have done better kicks previously when I was more active in tkd.

Wanting to try other disciplines doesn't speak poorly of my school. Trying something new can sometimes be about trying something new, not leaving something old.

 

[Chrisoro]

I was referring to the Kukkiwon website, not the school website.
Poom Dan SEARCH
And yes, that ranking matters to other KKW/WTF schools.

The search engine KKW employs there, is quite horrible. In order for my rank to come up I have to write my full name, all four parts of it. If I don't, i.e. if I just write my first and last name, or use any combination of my four legal names, it doesn't find me at all.

For a few seconds there, I thought I was deleted from the database or something.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Yes, I was wondering whether I need my middle initial, or even middle name.

 

[IcemanSK]

Nonetheless, what did it feel like for you once you got your BB?

I was 17 when I got my BB. Normally there were many BB's in class on a Friday night, but I was highest rank there that night. My master called me forward, said a few nice things, we bowed & then he started class. It was a bit disappointing that there weren't more people there to see it happen, but I felt great otherwise. I didn't quite feel "worhty" of the rank for about 6 months. But that says more about me at the time than anything that happened.

 

[Tames D]

Okay. Honestly, then… get over it. You were still very much at the beginning of your journey. You don't like having that (perceived) level of skill as being a "beginner"? Fine. I'd still consider you one (at that point).



Where was the attack, Tim? Believe me, asking if you really felt insulted (and I wasn't the only one to ask) is far from an attack… especially considering some of the suggestions you've made about me previously… which you refused to back up, clarify, or qualify… or issue a retraction or apology for.

Believe me, I can turn this into an attack… but I'd rather do that outside of a public thread.
Perspective Chris, Perspective. Don't tell me I'm wrong and you're right. I won't play your game. Feel free to turn it into an attack. Bring it on.




And, from this perspective, a Shodan can very easily be described as either definition 1 or 2. Again, though, it's all a matter of perspective.



So where did you drop the ball? If your kicks were better before, what changed in your approach to them? What changed in your practice? Why are you practicing less? And is that the fault of the belt and your rank?



So… you chose the school based on a budget… and you're wondering why the skill level isn't at the range you want it to be?

Look, I work in retail (electrical goods)… I had a customer ask for the cheapest 50 inch TV we had… I showed him a cheap, low-end Chinese no-name TV, and he said "So, this is a good TV, is it?" "Oh, good gods no, it's the cheapest. If you want good, pay for it".



Er… you never saw a boxing combo in a TKD class? Uh… because it's not TKD? It's an expression of boxing that had been imported…

What it's going to come down to is what you're training for. If the aim of the school is to train for TKD competition, training things outside of TKD is rather redundant and time-consuming… if you're training for generic "fighting skills", you'll get people bringing in a range of things that aren't part of the art, because they think they "fill a gap"… except they move you away from the actual system itself.



Okay… but you haven't really answered the question. For one thing, it's quite rare for schools to be more accepting of black belts than anything else… and most who try it have a false idea of what it means (based on their personal experience and perspective), and quickly recant. But the point is, if you're leaving, what does it matter if you're on their website? Your black belt only means anything in your school… you walk out the door, you're back to nothing. Sure, you still have the skills… but the rank is only an indication of where you are in the hierarchy and progression of that school… you may be a black belt there, but you walk into my school, and you're a mukyu (no rank)… same as if I walk into, say, an Aikido school (where I'm unranked).

So, if your'e leaving, why do you need to wait for the listing on the website? Is it just for your own sense of achievement? And, if so, doesn't that go against what you've posted here?



Sure, there's a lot of support, and schools want everyone to pass… but people still don't. Some drop out. Some don't make the grade, so to speak. That's reality, no matter your beliefs on the matter.



Well, let's suggest my experience might be a bit wider.



This isn't me taking anything personally… I haven't said anything about my personal attitude towards my black belt… honestly, I have more pride in promoting students to that level than I have in my own rank… what I'm interested in, though, is in understanding the motivations of others… and yours intrigued me. Both in what you said, and in why you posted in the first place. You're quite simply advertising your disenchantment in your school and your lack of appreciation of what you've achieved… which reflects a lack of respect in what your school teaches. And I find that both odd and interesting.

 

[Tames D]

Perspective Chris, Perspective. Don't tell me I'm wrong and you're right. Feel free to turn it into an attack. I can handle it. Bring it on.

 

[Tez3]

I think you would literally have to be mentally handicapped to fail out of high school IF YOU TRIED. A high school diploma is critical to doing anything (even barber school where I live) so schools want everyone to be able to graduate. The marks and courses may be different for a genius vs a bottom student, but they both graduate. Maybe it's different where you live, but where I live there are all sorts of options for people who can't handle the regular classes but still want a high school diploma.

In the UK we don't have 'high school diplomas', we have exams that you pass at various grades or you fail. We don't graduate from 'high school', many leave secondary education with no qualifications at all (that's a political hot potato here). I've also seen black belt aspirants fail their Dan tests and have to try again. From what I've seen of TKD here it's not the norm to pass everyone automatically after attending for a couple of years. I'm sure there are places in various styles that take your money and hand over belts but I think it's possibly not as normal as many think.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

From what I've seen of TKD here it's not the norm to pass everyone automatically after attending for a couple of years.

Is that KKW style schools? I don't want to say that here everyone passes "automatically", but the bar is low enough here that everyone passes as they progress on their colour belt test every 2-3 months, and BB test at around the 3 year mark. Here at the KKW schools I've been to, it is basically "show up and try"...not sure if that is "automatic" to you.

 

[WaterGal]

Is that KKW style schools? I don't want to say that here everyone passes "automatically", but the bar is low enough here that everyone passes as they progress on their colour belt test every 2-3 months, and BB test at around the 3 year mark. Here at the KKW schools I've been to, it is basically "show up and try"...not sure if that is "automatic" to you.

Everybody tests every 2-3 months and everybody passes that test? Regardless of how well they know the material?

This kind of approach at some schools is I guess why KKW felt the need to make the rules change discussed on the other thread....

 

[Tez3]

Is that KKW style schools? I don't want to say that here everyone passes "automatically", but the bar is low enough here that everyone passes as they progress on their colour belt test every 2-3 months, and BB test at around the 3 year mark. Here at the KKW schools I've been to, it is basically "show up and try"...not sure if that is "automatic" to you.

I'd leave that to someone like Andy Jeffries to give you a precise answer and also because I'm pretty sure he doesn't do that but I'm also pretty sure you can't generalise about the world's TKD classes just because a few you know grade that way. The standard I've seen of TKD seems pretty good here from what I've seen of the TKD students who have trained with us, children too.