Earl Weiss
Senior Master
As a famous man once said: "Even a thirsty man cannot drink from a Fire hose."
Black Belt Boot Camp
- Thread starter skribs
- Start date
OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
Interesting point. I know in BJJ, due to the very random nature of the technique-of-the-day, you get a lot of white belts who have no idea what's going on, because it's something they've never seen before. But everyone else in the room knows what's going on. In this way, everyone starts from Day 1 with the same technique, and you never have to worry about overexplaining on things people already know.
Dirty Dog is one of the exceptions, his school takes a bit longer to get to black belt than average for TKD.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
Are you saying a black belt means something in his dojang?
I think we are all missing the same point.... we all have different expectations for what black belt means and therefore what success is for these boot camps.
If getting your black belt is merely memorizing some dance moves and being able to copy them exactly... I would be very surprised if the boot camp were not successful.
If you expect that getting your black belt means more than just exactly copying a dance pattern.... then your definition of success for these boot camps will reflect that. Depending on how much you need to understand about the dance moves and how much experience you need in applying said dance moves on an unresisting opponent.... this will change how successful you think these boot camps can be.
One wrinkle that has been thrown in is that preparing for a fight is different than learning an art. Yes, you can prepare for a fight in these boot camps. These boot camps look a lot like the fight camps boxers and MMA fighters have when preparing for a match. And if we are talking about fight effectiveness, if these boot camps are done right, they can certainly prepare someone for a fight. But, that is different from mastering an art. While Mr Zero can go into a boot camp and come out good enough to win his fight.... his fight was with a similarly skilled opponent and Mr Zero is not yet ready to start his own boot camp to prepare other fighters.
I used to do ballroom and Lindyhop dancing. I took lessons from Frankie Manning (the guy that created the Lindyhop and made it famous) as well as a number of years taking lessons from the world champion lindy dancer. I could go to a two hour class with the world champion and learn the steps for his dance routine. I could learn every step and every movement, even the timing, the phrasing.... in the two hours. However, one of us was winning world championships with those moves and one of us was some guy at the club that was okay at dancing.... using the same moves, step for step, beat for beat. There is something you get over years of training that can not be jammed into a shorter time.
Some of the most valuable things I learned in martial arts took years. That is, they took years of messing up, not being able to do it, and utterly failing at it. Sure, I could work with one instructor for a few hours and get it to "work right." But, only if I did it his way, from his setup, with a partner that knew how he was supposed to react.... Then one day, after years of personal search and study, it clicked. It clicked in a way, that now I can apply most of the different ways the different instructors were showing me, I can apply it in new ways that I see other people use it and sometimes just make up my own variation of it while sparring. Better yet, the ideas now influence most of the other techniques I do. I would not have gotten this without the years of struggle and study and training.... even though I could copy the movement in one class worth of training.
We all have different expectations for black belt and thus for the definition of success for this boot camp. Is success memorizing some movement patterns? Is success understanding those movement patterns? Is success being able to apply those movement patterns? Is success being able to fight?
If getting your black belt is merely memorizing some dance moves and being able to copy them exactly... I would be very surprised if the boot camp were not successful.
If you expect that getting your black belt means more than just exactly copying a dance pattern.... then your definition of success for these boot camps will reflect that. Depending on how much you need to understand about the dance moves and how much experience you need in applying said dance moves on an unresisting opponent.... this will change how successful you think these boot camps can be.
One wrinkle that has been thrown in is that preparing for a fight is different than learning an art. Yes, you can prepare for a fight in these boot camps. These boot camps look a lot like the fight camps boxers and MMA fighters have when preparing for a match. And if we are talking about fight effectiveness, if these boot camps are done right, they can certainly prepare someone for a fight. But, that is different from mastering an art. While Mr Zero can go into a boot camp and come out good enough to win his fight.... his fight was with a similarly skilled opponent and Mr Zero is not yet ready to start his own boot camp to prepare other fighters.
I used to do ballroom and Lindyhop dancing. I took lessons from Frankie Manning (the guy that created the Lindyhop and made it famous) as well as a number of years taking lessons from the world champion lindy dancer. I could go to a two hour class with the world champion and learn the steps for his dance routine. I could learn every step and every movement, even the timing, the phrasing.... in the two hours. However, one of us was winning world championships with those moves and one of us was some guy at the club that was okay at dancing.... using the same moves, step for step, beat for beat. There is something you get over years of training that can not be jammed into a shorter time.
Some of the most valuable things I learned in martial arts took years. That is, they took years of messing up, not being able to do it, and utterly failing at it. Sure, I could work with one instructor for a few hours and get it to "work right." But, only if I did it his way, from his setup, with a partner that knew how he was supposed to react.... Then one day, after years of personal search and study, it clicked. It clicked in a way, that now I can apply most of the different ways the different instructors were showing me, I can apply it in new ways that I see other people use it and sometimes just make up my own variation of it while sparring. Better yet, the ideas now influence most of the other techniques I do. I would not have gotten this without the years of struggle and study and training.... even though I could copy the movement in one class worth of training.
We all have different expectations for black belt and thus for the definition of success for this boot camp. Is success memorizing some movement patterns? Is success understanding those movement patterns? Is success being able to apply those movement patterns? Is success being able to fight?
OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
I'm saying that the black belt in an average TKD dojang is a symbol that represents an average of 3-5 years of training, and in his is more than that. I don't know the exact numbers, so he can provide more accurate information than I can, but let's say 5-8 years.
In that way, a typical TKD black belt is around an associate's or bachelor's degree, and his is closer to a master's degree.
Of course, with that said, it doesn't necessarily mean his is a better system. In fact, if he was a pure KKW school, I'd argue that he would be sandbagging his students. Would you go to a college where it took 5-8 years to get an associate's degree? But it's up to the organization to decide what a black belt means in the organization, and if he's in line with what is typical in MDK, it makes sense.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I thought 1st dan was still a beginner. Literally since I've been posting here, folks have been downplaying the significance of the black belt. The standards are all over the place. So, instead of focusing on the labels, I'm more interested in the substance of the idea. And as I said before, and you seem to agree, there are a lot of examples of effective, intensive training programs like this. If it's well planned and executed, I bet folks could learn a heck of a lot in 12 weeks.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
In the context of this thread, what we all want to know is whether or not these "boot camp black belts" would be as good as their traditional counterparts? There are plenty of ways to find out but, as a control, I think that the best way would be an established martial arts association experimenting with a boot camp that would be taught by some of its most reputable instructors. When that association has its annual camp, they put them in the competitions and see how they fare against their traditional counterparts.
Until this actually happens, we're all speculating.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
This is the way.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Well no, it is certainly better than speculation. People here with a whole lot of experience are considering the issue from the vantage point of that experience. That isn’t mere speculation.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
You mean they've seen these boot camps before?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Sounds to me like some of them have. But it doesn’t matter. I am talking about many years experience training and teaching martial arts. People have a good knowledge of how the body and mind respond to obnoxiously intense and long training sessions. So no, this isn’t just speculation. An experienced person does not need to have done a bootcamp to have a good idea of how it is likely to result.
This is my point. You are inserting your own expectations into what a black belt is and what success of the boot camp is. Your expectation is that they can do well in the sporting competitions. So, you need to see results of sporting competition. But, if someone else only needs rote memorization of the patterns... then no competition is necessary. They either memorized it or not.
First you have to decide on what "black belt" means. Then you can decide on whether the boot camp can succeed on meeting your expectations. But other people will have other expectations... which will effect how they view the results of the boot camps.
In the KKW it is. In the MDK it is a teaching rank.
Would you hire a programmer who, with no prior experience, went to a 2-week course and was given a BS in Systems Analysis? I would not.
OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
The difference is you can't really condense a BS course in the same way.
A BS assumes 4 years of full-time study. Full time study is an estimated 12-16 hours of in-class time. There's also the estimation that you should spend twice as much time on assignments outside of class time, which would put you at 36-48 hours devoted to academics. Even excluding that, let's take 14 hours a week for 36 weeks of the year (3x 12-week quarters), for a 4-year degree, and you have around 2000 hours of class time.
The shortest possible time you could accomplish 2000 hours of training is 12 weeks, and that's assuming you are training 24 hours a day. If we set a more "reasonable" 12 hours per day, 7 days per week, without stopping, then 2000 hours would take around 6 months.
Would I accept a BS that took 6 months to complete? If he was doing 12 hour days, probably.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
And there's even a precedent for this. CLEP and DSST exams, and credit from high school AP courses. Most 4 year universities will allow you to apply as many credits from those as you want, as long you meet the 30 semester credit residency. I did this myself and finished my bachelor's degree in 18 months.
OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
This is more analogous to the other thread about belt reciprocity.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Well now you’re making my points regarding self defense, hyperbolic though you may be.
to answer your question, for an entry level job, I might hire a programmer who went through a 12 week intensive program and received a certification of some kind. Depends on the position, on the person, and on the program they completed, but sure. In fact, programs just like this are ubiquitous in job training at technical colleges and trade schools. Some are 12 weeks, others are 6 months or a year or slightly longer.
I don’t think we are that far apart, but you frame things in such an exaggerated way that it undermines your points. The zero to hero language and now we are at 2 week Bachelors degrees… that sort of thing undermines your credibility.
I actually am a programmer, and have done many interviews looking to hire other programmers. This also makes a very good analogy here as well.
Every resume I look at, has a Computer Science degree of some kind listed, BS, MS or Doctorate. They also all say that the have experience programming in C/C++ and Object Oriented programming. Sure, they can show you all the syntax for the different statements in C++.... But you would be surprised how many cannot articulate what the difference is between C and C++. They can not talk about the C++ implementation of Object Oriented Programming. Many have a hard time even naming an Object Oriented methodology, much less discussing one. When we get into the questions about how to design a system, many will never use Object Oriented patterns... and yet, all these candidates have degrees and certificates stating that they are trained in Object Oriented C++ programming. They can memorize for the test, and get all the syntax right.... but can program and algorithm to get themselves out of the wet paper bag. When you find the candidate that can explain to you how and when a brute force search through an ordered array can be much faster than a binary search.... you know the guy has experience, and has actually used many of the things he memorized from the books, in the real world.
This all goes back to my point.... we all have different expectations here.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I like what you're saying about experience. You're speaking my language and again, this speaks directly to what I've been saying about self defense training for a long time. To be clear, I don't know programming, but I do know training. Getting people from zero to... functional beginner... has been one major part of my job for a very long time. There are many good ways to train people, but as you highlight, training can only do some of the work.
Training is good for two things. It can prepare you to get going. Secondly, it can bridge the gaps, to help you get to the next stage of development. And to be clear, formal training just makes these things easier, more thorough, and more efficient. But you can become an expert in something with no formal training. You cannot become an expert with no experience.
So, the question on the table here isn't whether training can replace experience. I don't believe it can, no matter how well done. It is whether intensive training, if done well, is sufficient to get the trainee to the point of functional beginner, where they are prepared to start accumulating experience. And in my experience, it is and we can see examples of that in pretty much every profession.
And for what it's worth, I'm using the term functional beginner intentionally, because this is how many of the folks on this forum have described a black belt repeatedly over the last 10+ years I've been on this forum.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
How long does it take to become a cop? On average, it apparently takes about 833 hours, over an average of 5 months. I presume they get weekends off, though even so, not all that different than this. Some of the programs are shorter, around 600 hours. Some are longer. And per the report, only about 1 in 4 include some additional OJT/field training.
