Black Belt Boot Camp

[drop bear]

I think we are all missing the same point.... we all have different expectations for what black belt means and therefore what success is for these boot camps.

If getting your black belt is merely memorizing some dance moves and being able to copy them exactly... I would be very surprised if the boot camp were not successful.

If you expect that getting your black belt means more than just exactly copying a dance pattern.... then your definition of success for these boot camps will reflect that. Depending on how much you need to understand about the dance moves and how much experience you need in applying said dance moves on an unresisting opponent.... this will change how successful you think these boot camps can be.

One wrinkle that has been thrown in is that preparing for a fight is different than learning an art. Yes, you can prepare for a fight in these boot camps. These boot camps look a lot like the fight camps boxers and MMA fighters have when preparing for a match. And if we are talking about fight effectiveness, if these boot camps are done right, they can certainly prepare someone for a fight. But, that is different from mastering an art. While Mr Zero can go into a boot camp and come out good enough to win his fight.... his fight was with a similarly skilled opponent and Mr Zero is not yet ready to start his own boot camp to prepare other fighters.

I used to do ballroom and Lindyhop dancing. I took lessons from Frankie Manning (the guy that created the Lindyhop and made it famous) as well as a number of years taking lessons from the world champion lindy dancer. I could go to a two hour class with the world champion and learn the steps for his dance routine. I could learn every step and every movement, even the timing, the phrasing.... in the two hours. However, one of us was winning world championships with those moves and one of us was some guy at the club that was okay at dancing.... using the same moves, step for step, beat for beat. There is something you get over years of training that can not be jammed into a shorter time.

Some of the most valuable things I learned in martial arts took years. That is, they took years of messing up, not being able to do it, and utterly failing at it. Sure, I could work with one instructor for a few hours and get it to "work right." But, only if I did it his way, from his setup, with a partner that knew how he was supposed to react.... Then one day, after years of personal search and study, it clicked. It clicked in a way, that now I can apply most of the different ways the different instructors were showing me, I can apply it in new ways that I see other people use it and sometimes just make up my own variation of it while sparring. Better yet, the ideas now influence most of the other techniques I do. I would not have gotten this without the years of struggle and study and training.... even though I could copy the movement in one class worth of training.

We all have different expectations for black belt and thus for the definition of success for this boot camp. Is success memorizing some movement patterns? Is success understanding those movement patterns? Is success being able to apply those movement patterns? Is success being able to fight?

We are discussing pretty much the same time training though.

 

[drop bear]

Well no, it is certainly better than speculation. People here with a whole lot of experience are considering the issue from the vantage point of that experience. That isn’t mere speculation.

I am part of a club that actually does 12 week boot camps.

Who else has that experience?

 

[Steve]

I am part of a club that actually does 12 week boot camps.

Who else has that experience?

Yeah but how do those people do against a ufc fighter?

 

[drop bear]

Yeah but how do those people do against a ufc fighter?

We only have one. And he beats them to a pulp.

They do handle fairly experienced guys though. We have put them up against people with a couple of fights. And that is generally at least a couple of years training.

 

[skribs]

We only have one. And he beats them to a pulp.

They do handle fairly experienced guys though. We have put them up against people with a couple of fights. And that is generally at least a couple of years training.

Reminds me of a joke. I'm surprised I didn't think of this joke sooner in the thread.

A drill sergeant is addressing a group of new recruits. "Do any of you maggots think you can whoop me?"

"I can." The young man that spoke up was a doppelganger of The Mountain. Nearly 7 feet tall, 400 pounds of solid muscle.

"Stand here," said the drill sergeant. Then, turning to the rest of the recruits. "This is my new assistant. Do any of you maggots think you can whoop both of us?"

 

[Dirty Dog]

The difference is you can't really condense a BS course in the same way.

You can't really condense 8 years of MA training that way either.

 

[skribs]

You can't really condense 8 years of MA training that way either.

As I said, you're an outlier. I was comparing this to a normal school.

 

[Steve]

We only have one. And he beats them to a pulp.

They do handle fairly experienced guys though. We have put them up against people with a couple of fights. And that is generally at least a couple of years training.

Well, then clearly your program doesn't work.

Seriously though, I wouldn't expect these folks to be experts. It's worth highlighting the difference between reasonable and unreasonable expectations. It's a testament to the program you all have that these guys can hold their own against people with more experience.

 

[Steve]

You can't really condense 8 years of MA training that way either.

How did we get to 8 years? Every time you post, it's even more over the top. You started by talking about bachelors degrees, now it's 8 years. Next time you'll be talking in terms of careers.

 

[Dirty Dog]

How did we get to 8 years?

Average time to black belt in our system.

Every time you post, it's even more over the top.

Whatever you say, Stevie.

You started by talking about bachelors degrees,

No, I didn't. Your memory going? It happens...
@skribs brought up an analogy between training time and various degrees, not me.

now it's 8 years. Next time you'll be talking in terms of careers.

There are quite a few people who have made careers out of MA.

 

[Steve]

To provide another practical analogy, a friend of mine teaches welding at the local technical college. 26 credits over 6 months gets you fully prepared for your basic certifications and a good paying job.

This is our local technical college, and these are the "gainful employment" summaries for their certifications. Most of these are either 6 month or 9 month certs designed to take folks from zero experience to fully employed, which they often complete while working full time.

Gainful Employment Information

The point is that, like at Drop Bear's school, teaching people to do things competently doesn't take long. If you have a structurally sound program and clear, reasonable goals, people can make a lot of progress in a relatively short period of time. The problem, as we have all said at different times in different contexts, is that some martial arts schools have crappy training models that are inefficient and bloated with mythology, unclear training goals, and no clear application.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Well, then clearly your program doesn't work.

Seriously though, I wouldn't expect these folks to be experts. It's worth highlighting the difference between reasonable and unreasonable expectations. It's a testament to the program you all have that these guys can hold their own against people with more experience.

In all fairness, the UFC is the professional league. Plenty of players in the NFL have never touched a football until the freshman year of high school, while there are plenty of young men that started with Peewee that wouldn't even be accepted as a walk-on in a D1 school.

 

[Steve]

In all fairness, the UFC is the professional league. Plenty of players in the NFL have never touched a football until the freshman year of high school, while there are plenty of young men that started with Peewee that wouldn't even be accepted as a walk-on in a D1 school.

I agree, and some folks will argue exactly that straw man.

 

[Flying Crane]

I see this more commonly in SCUBA than anything else and it is purely a money maker.

Start with someone who has never been under water, sell them one course at a time, all the while telling them what a natural they are, and after 60 dives and about $10,000, they're "qualified" as a PADI Open Water SCUBA instructor.

Realized I wanted to comment on this part. In my case, my scuba instructor in college became a good friend and we enjoyed diving together. He encouraged me to take the classes he offered, but he barely charged me anything for them. He was operating independently, I just needed to supply my own gear. I know that I paid him for one of the classes (might have been Rescue Diver or Divemaster) with a 24-pack of Michelob. I had to do the Instructor training with a different outfit who charged several hundred dollars. But in the end, after finishing with my Instructor certification, for all of my scuba training I am certain I paid far far less than $10,000. But my experience was probably not typical.

 

[drop bear]

Well, then clearly your program doesn't work.

Seriously though, I wouldn't expect these folks to be experts. It's worth highlighting the difference between reasonable and unreasonable expectations. It's a testament to the program you all have that these guys can hold their own against people with more experience.

Yeah. But he was a UFC fighter well inside 8 years if that is the new bench mark.

So obviously if you extend the 12 week program idea to the new goal post. It is still consistent.

 

[J. Pickard]

In the Boot Camp program, you attend 504 hours (6*7*12), which is similar to a 2-hour-per-week student at 5 years, and more than a 3-hour-per-week student at 3 years. If you accept that a TKD black belt can be earned in 3-5 years at 2-3 hours per week, then this is a similar amount of mat time.

This assumes that the student training in the dojang 2-3 times a week is doing zero training on their own. The way we word it is you come to the dojang for expert eyes to help you identify what is needs work and give you the tools to fix it and safe partners to drill it. It is then up to you to put in the work outside of the dojang with those tools to fix it so you can come back and drill it even better. I have heard other schools explain it the same way. I would argue that while this is comparable time in the dojang it is substantially less training in total.

That being said, it depends on how they define "black belt" for their school/style. In my dojang and the dojo/dojang among my circle of MA friends that would be a hard no. But what others do in their school is their business. Any experienced martial artist knows that not all black belts are equal and not all black belts represent the same thing.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You will find most experienced divers agree, and most technical divers have no respect at all for the OW certifying agencies.

For example. All agencies agree that a certified diver should be able to plan and execute a dive with just themselves and their buddy. And yet, underwater navigation is taught in Advanced Open Water... Then there's the buoyancy training...

It is possible to get decent beginner training. Organizations like GUE or IANTD require an Open Water diver to actually have good buoyancy and trim and to be able to navigate.

Most people are vacation divers, though. I've met divers who are proud of their 20 years of experience. With less than 100 dives logged...

I’m probably in that over a period of 35 years I have averaged around 5 dives a year total. I would not feel comfortable leading a dive, I only dive in groups and haven’t been in years. I agree with everything here because I never believed that a single cave dive course would make me ready to do that. I’m a vacation diver that requires adult supervision under the best of circumstances.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For me the pattern is.
Reality 1: Tired -> Sloppy -> Bad techniuqe -> injury
Reality 2: Tired -> Sloppy -> Good technique -> Physical failure (torn muscle, etc.) -> injury

Bill Gate doesn't need to borrow money from the bank. You can only learn how to borrow your opponent's force when you are tired.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

for something like martial arts it works surprisingly well.

If the program is a well thought out progressive approach. It basically means you can start everyone with the right foundations and build on those in a cohesive way.

So the training makes sense from start to finish.

You can also achieve the right physical conditioning. So people are participating properly in the classes rather than sitting out or wasting time because they are gassed.

For developing skill quickly, I agree. However, given the "-do" approach in most asian-based MA's, that speed to BB doesn't really fit. And in that time span, I would be very surprised if most participants can learn the curriculum to the level normally required for BB. They could manage comparable fighting skill, but in most programs that's only part of the requirement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but it's also A Tkd blackbelt.

Meaning?