Black Belt Boot Camp

[Flying Crane]

Even if I were to say "minimally competent," is it not generally agreed upon (outside of BJJ) that that's what 1st dan is supposed to be?

No.

 

[drop bear]

Here we go. The promotion just came out.

And yes they used zero to hero.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Bestowing rank comes down to someone’s judgement call. I guess if we aren’t a member of their group, we have no input in the matter. So if someone wants to put together and market a 12 week bootcamp taking students from zero to shodan, that is their business. I find it ridiculous, but I am not running a bootcamp and I am not bestowing the rank afterwards. My standards are my own, and the standards of others are their own concern. For better or for worse.

I find a lot of what goes on around rank in the martial arts to be silly. Lots of people wearing black belts who I feel were not deserving. But again, they are not my students so my opinion matters not.

A lot of excessively high black belt ranks are self-bestowed as well, in an attempt (I believe) to one-up the competition down the street, and to satisfy an insatiable ego. I have seen pictures of Elvis Presley wearing a black belt with eight stripes on the end. If what I have read about his training is true, he deserved to be wearing a black belt. But eighth dan seems pretty excessive to me. The guy wasn’t even all that old when he died, the rank seems excessive simply based on his age, never mind his general deterioration as he got older that indicated he was not keeping up his training. Famous people often end up with sycophants in their retinue, ready to give them whatever they can to stroke the ego and stay in their good graces. I don’t know the circumstances around Elvis strapping on a belt with eight stripes. Maybe it was a sycophantic act, maybe it wasn’t. In the end, someone made the decision to bestow the rank and its none of my business. I have an opinion on the matter, but it isn’t for me to undo what someone else has done.

So hey, if someone wants to hand out black belts to students who complete a 12 week bootcamp, I guess it’s none of my business. I will worry about my own standards and others can worry about theirs.

Maybe I’m the fool for not grabbing ahold of this cash cow. Money has been tight for a while. I shall meditate on this…

Well remember who Elvis got that black belt from….

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Here we go. The promotion just came out.

And yes they used zero to hero.

What is the charge for this? Who are the instructors? So many questions…

 

[Flying Crane]

Well remember who Elvis got that black belt from….

From what I have read Elvis first studied karate while stationed in Germany while serving in the military. I believe he legitimately earned his shodan from his first teacher. Later he made connections States-side and continued to some degree with his training, and to some extent surrounded himself with people who trained. This is where his higher ranking came from. As time went on I imagine he was busy with his music career and had less time for serious training, although I believe he always had a love for the martial arts. His later years were marked by obvious deterioration indicating there was likely little or no real training going on.

He was only 42 when he passed away, suggesting the eighth Dan would have been bestowed some time in his 30s, which I find difficult to support.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But they have both spent the same time training. Just one group does it over 12 weeks. The other does it over 2 years

They both have the same depth of understanding.

They didn't spend the same Amount of time. They may have spent the same hours in formal training but that isn't an equal amount of time of training and discovery.

20 hours of training time stretched over 4 days is not same as 20 hours of training time stretched over 20 days.
What a 1 hour a day class over 20 days gives you.

• will have a longer time to mentally engage in the martial arts thought processes
• you'll have more time for informal solo practice. This is practice outside of class
• You'll have more time to think, discuss, and question what you are training all of your questions and discovers will not show up over a short period of time. It may be months before you get a well thought out question or discover small important things about your movement that make big differences. Discussion leads to discovery. Discovery leads to improvement.

All of these benefits may not hold true to everyone. If a person doesn't have dedication or a strong desire, then a shorter condense route of training is better. We all know that we are supposed to train on our own outside of class. But we also know that isn't the most popular or most enjoyable path. Some people have greater improvement in a group.

 

[Steve]

Look at all the things that I mentioned are learned in actual boot camp. When you add in the follow-on training, the multi-million dollar equipment that they're being trained to use. You're not learning how to use multi-million dollar equipment in a dojo. Getting a black belt doesn't put you in a position to have 332 million people depending on you to defend their freedom.

I agree with you to a point. But remember that basic training is the first part. There is always more advanced training in some speciality, and of course a few years (at least) of OJT with possibly additional training before you’re considered for a low level NCO position.

So while I agree that a lot is learned in boot camp, it’s not intended to produce experts. And I don’t think that undermines the point at all. It’s about reasonable expectations.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here we go. The promotion just came out.

And yes they used zero to hero.

Leaves a lot to personal interpretation. If I have no experience then my gain would be much bigger and would be closer to the "zero to hero" outcome. I wouldn't feel the "zero to hero" effect if I were to participate today with the skills that I currently have today. The more experience some one comes in with the less they will care about "zero to hero" .

The first thing I thought of after reading that flyer was that it would be beneficial to existing training. Something I could do in addition to what I'm already doing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So while I agree that a lot is learned in boot camp, it’s not intended to produce experts.

This is where the reality exists. The experts who are teaching the class took longer to be experts than the time that is offered in the boot camp.

Ask a quality an instructor how long did it take them to get to their level. I don't think any would calculate the number of hours they trained and if they did, then it would be more training hours than what the boot camp offers

 

[Flying Crane]

If a person doesn't have dedication or a strong desire, then a shorter condense route of training is better. We all know that we are supposed to train on our own outside of class. But we also know that isn't the most popular or most enjoyable path. Some people have greater improvement in a group.

I find it difficult to believe that a person without dedication and a strong desire would even come close to getting through a bootcamp as described in the OP. Seven hours a day, seven days a week, for 12 weeks? No way in hell. Without a really really really really strong desire and dedication, anybody would just burn out and quit somewhere in the first week or two If they don’t otherwise succumb to injury or exhaustion. Working for weeks at a time like that without a break is simply not sustainable in anything like a healthy way.

 

[drop bear]

What is the charge for this? Who are the instructors? So many questions…

That is the gym I go to. It is about $1200 I think. For 3 months full time plus a nutritional and fighter support.

The coaches are an ex UFC fighter and a guy who has trained a couple of title belt holders.

 

[drop bear]

They didn't spend the same Amount of time. They may have spent the same hours in formal training but that isn't an equal amount of time of training and discovery.

20 hours of training time stretched over 4 days is not same as 20 hours of training time stretched over 20 days.
What a 1 hour a day class over 20 days gives you.

• will have a longer time to mentally engage in the martial arts thought processes
• you'll have more time for informal solo practice. This is practice outside of class
• You'll have more time to think, discuss, and question what you are training all of your questions and discovers will not show up over a short period of time. It may be months before you get a well thought out question or discover small important things about your movement that make big differences. Discussion leads to discovery. Discovery leads to improvement.

All of these benefits may not hold true to everyone. If a person doesn't have dedication or a strong desire, then a shorter condense route of training is better. We all know that we are supposed to train on our own outside of class. But we also know that isn't the most popular or most enjoyable path. Some people have greater improvement in a group.

Yet you look at people who grade fast. They are putting the time in.

 

[Flying Crane]

Civilian to Soldier in 10 weeks. Civilian to Marine in 13 weeks. That boy in high school who's working up the courage to ask his crush to the prom right now as we speak could possibly be in Ukraine fighting off the Russians before Christmas (if things were to escalate to that level by then). In that short amount of time, they have to learn marksmanship, individual tactical maneuvers (moving under fire, etc), first aid, CPR, digging a foxhole, protection against chemical and biological weapons, land navigation, etc.

I'm just not seeing how, if this can be done in such a short amount of time, making a black belt can't be.

Much of what you list here is intellectual and technological in nature. It isn’t hours and hours of physical training every single day. Granted of course there is physical training in modern military bootcamps as well, but I doubt it is six hours every day for twelve weeks, without break. It would be a rare person who can keep up that pace for 12 weeks.

Teaching your body to perform physical skills, particularly in the early stages when those skills are new, is more difficult than teaching a person to operate technology, regardless of the price tag on that technology. Regurgitating those physical skills likewise falls short of being able to actually use them spontaneously and creatively. Some level of reasonable mastery of those skills isn’t achieved through non-stop physical training. The brain needs significant downtime to process the learning, just as the body needs significant downtime to recover and avoid injury. That minimum downtime is not accomplished when you endure six hours of physical training every day, without break for twelve weeks.

I am sure military training is challenging in its own right. But it is a different kind of training, and I am highly skeptical of claims that recruits going through basic training are never allowed a day off during that time, at least from the physical aspects of it. Study and homework would be a daily constant, just like a semester in college. I attended classes on most every weekday, and spent significant time studying outside of class virtually every day, including weekends. But that wasn’t physical training; it didn’t take a physical toll on my body. I would expect military basic training to be similar, but the topics would be different.

I am sure I could learn to operate that multi-million dollar technology as well. Drive a tank, operate artillery or radar or communications, marksmanship, battlefield tactics, sure. None of that would be daunting. We all operate technology on a daily basis. It just scales up to more expensive equipment, but that does not mean it isn’t accessible to someone who is receiving the instruction. It doesn’t put anyone on a pedestal for doing it. But it taxes a person differently than non-stop physical training.

 

[drop bear]

By the way. It is generally 3hours in the morning and 3 at night. You can get plenty of rest.

There are people who do that pretty much permanently. And still hold down jobs.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That is the gym I go to. It is about $1200 I think. For 3 months full time plus a nutritional and fighter support.

The coaches are an ex UFC fighter and a guy who has trained a couple of title belt holders.

Full time means? What if you work a full time job? I’m just curious about the particulars. So this is competitive ufc style mma training?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

By the way. It is generally 3hours in the morning and 3 at night. You can get plenty of rest.

There are people who do that pretty much permanently. And still hold down jobs.

Sorry didn’t see this until after I posted.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

By the way. It is generally 3hours in the morning and 3 at night. You can get plenty of rest.

There are people who do that pretty much permanently. And still hold down jobs.

You can do it, for a time, but not without sacrificing some other aspect of your life.

 

[JowGaWolf]

By the way. It is generally 3hours in the morning and 3 at night. You can get plenty of rest.

There are people who do that pretty much permanently. And still hold down jobs.

This is how my 2 day training is. Morning and night training.

 

[drop bear]

You can do it, for a time, but not without sacrificing some other aspect of your life.

Obviously. But that is how life works.

 

[drop bear]

Leaves a lot to personal interpretation. If I have no experience then my gain would be much bigger and would be closer to the "zero to hero" outcome. I wouldn't feel the "zero to hero" effect if I were to participate today with the skills that I currently have today. The more experience some one comes in with the less they will care about "zero to hero" .

The first thing I thought of after reading that flyer was that it would be beneficial to existing training. Something I could do in addition to what I'm already doing.

You get a lot of trigger time with these programs. Which means you spend a lot of time moving around people in that fighting dynamic.

So you get good timing and kinetic sense. (I think kinetic is correct?)