“Best” Martial Art

[drop bear]

Really? So what has your “evidence” led you to believe?

That scientific method is the best approach.

 

[drop bear]

And to explain this I will go to the old faithful dawkings dowsing experiment.

And the difference between peoples anecdotal experience and testing under laboratory conditions.

So there are plenty of things people will believe works because they have experienced them first hand.

But without being able to recreate that at will under the right conditions. It isn't truthful evidence.

And in martial arts that is resisted training or competition. Can you do a thing when a random selection of people are trying to stop you.

And can you do it when we ask you to. Where we can see it with people you have not hand picked. So under controlled conditions.

So here we have a martial arts that works. Untill we bring an outside person to test it. And ask for it to be demonstrated under controlled conditions.

So we can take this obvious example and apply it to mabye a less obvious example. And test it the same way.

 

[juruth]

From everything I've witnessed and everything I've heard, Shaolin Kempo Karate as taught by Villari is the superior Martial Art.

 

[marvin8]

And to explain this I will go to the old faithful dawkings dowsing experiment.

And the difference between peoples anecdotal experience and testing under laboratory conditions.

So there are plenty of things people will believe works because they have experienced them first hand.

But without being able to recreate that at will under the right conditions. It isn't truthful evidence.

And in martial arts that is resisted training or competition. Can you do a thing when a random selection of people are trying to stop you.

And can you do it when we ask you to. Where we can see it with people you have not hand picked. So under controlled conditions.

So here we have a martial arts that works. Untill we bring an outside person to test it. And ask for it to be demonstrated under controlled conditions.

So we can take this obvious example and apply it to mabye a less obvious example. And test it the same way.

You can learn (e.g., principles, drills, partner drills, technical spar, etc.) what works. And, many MMA gyms will not require you to spar or compete.

"While you will have a chance to practice with competing athletes or fighters, no student is ever pressured to 'fight' or spar. If you decide to spar, you will do so with proper education and training."

 

[_Simon_]

Yeah... we are simply defining "best" in different ways, best for my goals/intention vs. best for optimal outcome/results in fighting. That's really where the confusion lays I feel.

@drop bear absolutely has a point, but then his definition of best is specific. Some methods do produce better results. We can't really just say the best is what we want. My style is the best for me, but that's really a different conversation. I think what is often referred to as best is "more optimal training system/methodologies to produce a specific result". But then there absolutely are many styles that simply take longer to produce that result or get one better at fighting. Some simply produce  different results that are still just as effective. Some don't really prepare you as well and that's cool, as it really does depend on your goals. But we can't really say throwaway generalities like TKD won't work, absolutely it has been used effectively in self defence. Each art exists along a spectrum that emphasises different things. Even the oft-used claim that Kyokushin won't prepare you due to lack of head punches is interesting. Of course that aspect is lacking there, but my training in it has developed many other important attributes and skills that 100% has prepared me better and I have put my sparring under pressure successfully and held my only own.

I feel this post is a bit disjointed haha but hope you get what I mean. @Monkey Turned Wolf made some great points too.

So I agree with both sides, because they seem to be stating or arguing different things haha

 

[gyoja]

And to explain this I will go to the old faithful dawkings dowsing experiment.

And the difference between peoples anecdotal experience and testing under laboratory conditions.

So there are plenty of things people will believe works because they have experienced them first hand.

But without being able to recreate that at will under the right conditions. It isn't truthful evidence.

And in martial arts that is resisted training or competition. Can you do a thing when a random selection of people are trying to stop you.

And can you do it when we ask you to. Where we can see it with people you have not hand picked. So under controlled conditions.

So here we have a martial arts that works. Untill we bring an outside person to test it. And ask for it to be demonstrated under controlled conditions.

So we can take this obvious example and apply it to mabye a less obvious example. And test it the same way.

You still didn’t answer the question. If you have conducted this “experiment”, what were your “results”?

 

[gyoja]

Yeah... we are simply defining "best" in different ways, best for my goals/intention vs. best for optimal outcome/results in fighting. That's really where the confusion lays I feel.

@drop bear absolutely has a point, but then his definition of best is specific. Some methods do produce better results. We can't really just say the best is what we want. My style is the best for me, but that's really a different conversation. I think what is often referred to as best is "more optimal training system/methodologies to produce a specific result". But then there absolutely are many styles that simply take longer to produce that result or get one better at fighting. Some simply produce  different results that are still just as effective. Some don't really prepare you as well and that's cool, as it really does depend on your goals. But we can't really say throwaway generalities like TKD won't work, absolutely it has been used effectively in self defence. Each art exists along a spectrum that emphasises different things. Even the oft-used claim that Kyokushin won't prepare you due to lack of head punches is interesting. Of course that aspect is lacking there, but my training in it has developed many other important attributes and skills that 100% has prepared me better and I have put my sparring under pressure successfully and held my only own.

I feel this post is a bit disjointed haha but hope you get what I mean. @Monkey Turned Wolf made some great points too.

So I agree with both sides, because they seem to be stating or arguing different things haha

I disagree. Sometimes even the better fighter loses a match, so it doesn’t prove anything. I don’t believe anyone is seriously considering obviously phony instructors or systems in this particular discussion.

 

[marvin8]

I think what is often referred to as best is "more optimal training system/methodologies to produce a specific result". But then there absolutely are many styles that simply take longer to produce that result or get one better at fighting. Some simply produce  different results that are still just as effective. Some don't really prepare you as well and that's cool, as it really does depend on your goals. But we can't really say throwaway generalities like TKD won't work, absolutely it has been used effectively in self defence. Each art exists along a spectrum that emphasises different things. Even the oft-used claim that Kyokushin won't prepare you due to lack of head punches is interesting.

The story of Kenji Kurosaki, a co-founder of Kyokushin Karate. After losing a muay thai fight, Kurosaki decided to study the art of Muay Thai. He found Muay Thai impressively brutal and the realistic training methods used in Muay Thai, very valuable. In 1963, Kurosaki opened Mejiro Gym and taught his new "kickboxing" style to visiting Dutch men, including Jan Plas.

 

[drop bear]

You still didn’t answer the question. If you have conducted this “experiment”, what were your “results”?

The martial arts that conduct that experiment are the best.

 

[gyoja]

The martial arts that conduct that experiment are the best.

Which are? In your “experience”?

 

[drop bear]

I disagree. Sometimes even the better fighter loses a match, so it doesn’t prove anything. I don’t believe anyone is seriously considering obviously phony instructors or systems in this particular discussion.

If there is no best martial arts. Then there are no phony instructors.

 

[gyoja]

If there is no best martial arts. Then there are no phony instructors.

Sure there are. A phony or bad instructor is not an indicator of an entire art.

 

[drop bear]

Sure there are. A phony or bad instructor is not an indicator of an entire art.

How exactly would an instructor be phony if there is no best martial art?

We can't judge his results.

 

[drop bear]

Which are? In your “experience”?

It doesn’t matter. If the concept is followed. This is the point where we can discuss applicable to the person.

 

[gyoja]

How exactly would an instructor be phony if there is no best martial art?

We can't judge his results.

He would either not be approved to train in his claimed system, or falsely claiming to be able to teach a system that he doesn’t know.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

there is no best martial art?

The best MA system is a system that you can learn:

- foundation building,
- power generation,
- speed generation,
- striking art and wrestling art integration.

 

[gyoja]

It doesn’t matter. If the concept is followed. This is the point where we can discuss applicable to the person.

Of course it matters. You are claiming a method to prove whether a MA system is better than another. Please let us know which system that you believe is better.

 

[drop bear]

The best MA system is a system that you can learn:

- power generation,
- speed generation,
- striking art and wrestling art integration.

Well. You probably need some standard. And some way to determine that standard is being met.

 

[drop bear]

Of course it matters. You are claiming a method to prove whether a MA system is better than another. Please let us know which system that you believe is better.

The martial arts that performs better in those experiments.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well. You probably need some standard. And some way to determine that standard is being met.

First you need to have it in theory, you then need a physical path to achieve it.

Which MA systems will you choose when the teachers says:

1. If you train my system for 10 years, you will learn ...
2. If you do the following drills, you will learn ...

I'll pick 2 and not 1.