Best combo for street self defence

[drop bear]

You're still trying to argue for, or against something I am not talking about at all. And I'm not biting, so thanks again

I don't think you have thought this through properly.

There are a lot of things said to support a martial art that sounds good. But do not really stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't think you have thought this through properly.

There are a lot of things said to support a martial art that sounds good. But do not really stand up to scrutiny.

Nothing to think about on this, it is not at all what I was taking about, not even remotely close......but please, feel free to keep trying to get me into an argument that I am not trying to make

 

[drop bear]

Nothing to think about on this, it is not at all what I was taking about, not even remotely close......but please, feel free to keep trying to get me into an argument that I am not trying to make

Did you read the rest of it?

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree. And I've known some wushu guys and gals in my day. I know a lot of martial people, know a lot of guys who do a lot of form work, I've watched them do so at their dojo. Man, it's a workout and a half. They do their forms with a sense of purpose, almost like they're angry and killing something with it.

They do look good doing them, but they don't seem to even know that, they're way too far into the internal aspects and I'd not want to stumble into their path. That would suck.

Well, I’ve known a good number of Modern Wushu folks; my first Sifu was also a coach for MW and headed the team for one of the major California universities. I told him I was only interested in the traditional methods, and he always respected my wishes. But I knew some people who trained in that context and method, including competing at the annual UC Berkeley Chinese Martial Art tournament where I competed in traditional forms, and they competed in MW. MW people can be tremendous athletes. It is akin to a gymnastics floor routine with a heavy martial influence. I can respect the hell out of that. Some of them I think were also training in a traditional method so they had a better sense of the combative application. Those who did strictly MW, putting aside their athleticism, my impression is that they don’t have much for the combat.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Did you read the rest of it?

Yup.... have a nice day

 

[drop bear]

I agree with your statement. In each individual case we don’t know the effectiveness. For example, I trained in several martial arts. I would hesitate to call myself mma, but perhaps that is true. I use boxing skills, jujitsu skills, CMA skills and add a few things I have learned from different folks over the years. It seems to have been effective for me. I have not competed using those skills in a sanctioned event so I can’t speak to how well i would do in that arena. I am never satisfied with my performance, I train hard, and I am honest and realistic about my ability. I am past any fighting prime in my fifties but I do believe I have some skills after a lifetime of training. I don’t claim to have the best, and I am certain there is much that I am ignorant of in martial arts. I am always open to learning new things from others. That’s why I have a white belt in BJJ. I am of the firm belief that I must stay open to concepts and ideas that I am unfamiliar with if I want to grow as a martial artist. To do that, I have to be willing to put aside what I think I know.

Where for example you could do a krav and even at 50 would clean up everyone in the room. The training is designed for you to win.

Where bjj. You might spend years getting manhandled by everyone.

One is designed to produce satisfaction. And the other sacrifices satisfaction to produce effectiveness.


This for example you could do with a bad knee or on a bad day. Because regardless as to how ineffective you are you are going to win.

And the argument is it is more suited to older or time poor and so on. But I don't believe it is. It is just an easier game to beat.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No. That is martial arts sales gobbledygook for our system doesn't do the thing we say it does.

Martial arts sales gobbledygook doesn't have anything to do with the function of a system. We can either talk about marketing or we can talk about the function of a Martial Arts and the context in which people train it.

For example. Your issue is that some school sale gobbledygook marketing by promising that a system does something that it doesn't do.
If that same school was honest about what system does then you wouldn't be upset. What has changed? Did the marketing change or did the system change. If they were honest about what the system does or doesn't do, then you wouldn't complain about it. Just like you don't complain about Tai chi for heath or Fitness boxing.

If you do system A and everyone gets consistently better then system A works.

No such thing exists where everyone gets better. Name any system and there will be examples of someone not getting better or someone hitting ceiling. When watch in "real time" of what happened with Ivan and boxing.

Getting better at a system doesn't mean one is better at fighting. There are many people who train Jow Ga who are better at doing Jow Ga than me. However, there are very few who actually train Jow Ga application like I train it. Some Jow Ga students don't care about fighting, they care about forms competition. Is Jow Ga kung fu gobbledygook because those who only care about forms say "it's the individual not the system." If that's the case then my training gobbledygook because I train the same system.

Why can I successfully fight with Jow Ga and some other's cannot? Is it the system or is it the individual.

Why does my sparring look like this? Is it the individual or the system?

And their sparring looks like this? It's the same system I train in. Is it the individual or the system?

Same system, different training methods, different training focuses, different individuals.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Every person that I train to fight will be able to fight by using Jow Ga Kung Fu. Everyone that I train in Jow Ga Fu will not learn how to fight by using Jow Ga. Why? Because you don't have to learn how to fight in order to train Jow Ga Kung Fu.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This for example you could do with a bad knee or on a bad day. Because regardless as to how ineffective you are you are going to win.


And the argument is it is more suited to older or time poor and so on. But I don't believe it is. It is just an easier game to beat.

Same system different individuals

 

[drop bear]

Same system different individuals

Different systems. Same name.

 

[drop bear]

No such thing exists where everyone gets better. Name any system and there will be examples of someone not getting better or someone hitting ceiling. When watch in "real time" of what happened with Ivan and boxing.

Is he getting better at jits. But not at boxing? But the individual right?

 

[drop bear]

Getting better at a system doesn't mean one is better at fighting. There are many people who train Jow Ga who are better at doing Jow Ga than me. However, there are very few who actually train Jow Ga application like I train it. Some Jow Ga students don't care about fighting, they care about forms competition. Is Jow Ga kung fu gobbledygook because those who only care about forms say "it's the individual not the system." If that's the case then my training gobbledygook because I train the same system.

Why can I successfully fight with Jow Ga and some other's cannot? Is it the system or is it the individual.

Why does my sparring look like this? Is it the individual or the system?

In choosing a system for self defence people should probably choose one that makes them better at fighting.

In choosing a system for self defence people should probably choose a system with a better strike rate than one guy can make it work.

Or no guys can make it work.

 

[drop bear]

The important thing to understand when choosing the best martial arts for self defence is there is no requirement for it to work.

If you buy a car and the wheels fall off you can return the car or sue the guy who sold it to you.

There is at least a minimum standard of performance.

Self defence does not have this problem. You can invest years and thousands of dollars and not gain a single thing from that experience. Even if the school in question has promised black and blue that you will achieve a result.

It is just not a requirement. And there is nothing you can do about it after the fact.

The onus is on the buyer to determine beforehand if the system they are going to use for self defence is going to work and at what level it is going to work.


It is not a requirement to judge all styles as equal because you don’twant to upset people. And not to judge a style only after you have invested significant time and money in that style.

This is not meant to be mean. It is your head on the block if something goes wrong. So be ruthless with your decisions before you have to face on the consequences.

A good self defence system will have a proven track record that you can see and test.

If you go to a class and every coloured belt ownes you every time. That is not because by some random chance a bunch of exceptional individuals just happened to be in the same place at the same time.

If after a few years you are handling everyone who walks in the door this does not mean you have suddenly become genetically better.

This means the system consistently works. And would be a viable base art for self defence.

It is not a mysterious secret hidden process when done correctly. It is straightforward, testable and observable.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't mean to cherry pick, but this "Some people just want to look good doing the forms."

I have honestly never met anyone who wanted that. Not even friends of mine who live by Kata.

Man, I gotta' get out more.

Thing is, I've never met a pygmy but I know they are out there.

Your school doesn't place importance on the showman ship of doing a form or kata then you won't meet people like that. They don't drink at your water hole. I know they are out there because I had one in the same school that I was in. We gave her the nickname Hollywood. Everything had to be perfect vs practical. Her focus bled into her sparring and often times the instructors had to remind her not to pose during sparring after striking.

I've met people from other systems as well who were similar. Then there's the extreme martial arts crowd. I'm pretty sure this is not proper sword technique. I'm not saying that it's bad. This guy may be in an action movie in the future.

Then you have people like this. You know what's important to them? Looking good, Looking cool, and not screwing up the performance. You know who would really suck at this type of stuff? People like you, and definitely people like me. You know what's not exciting to watch? Me doing forms lol

I'm pretty sure there's version of me in the multiverse who is really good at this stuff and if I ever fall into worm hole and land on his planet. I will be sure to correct that error. lol

I'm just saying that people do martial arts for various reason. We may not approve of the reasons, but it is what it is. One of the coolest things to me was the Lion Dance. My school needed some performers for Lion Dance as it helped fund the school. So I gave it a try and ended up really liking it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I suppose people who do XMA or Modern Wushu would fall into this category. It is meant as a performance art.

But they are doing very different forms from traditional Kata or Chinese forms.

yep. it's still Martial Arts some of the techniques are applicable while other techniques are for performance only. They just don't train it to be applicable in a fight because that's not their focus. Could it be applicable? yeah I'm pretty sure. Cut out the performance stuff get a sparring partner and do like everyone else does. Work the practical techniques. In the system.

In choosing a system for self defence people should probably choose one that makes them better at fighting.

And they do. People who really want to learn to fight usually learn and become good at it. The reason they become good at it is because they know the key things that they need to do such as sparring. If a school doesn't have sparring then they aren't interested. If the system isn't practical then they leave and go somewhere else.

Then you have some people who just want to have a good kick or a good punch, the basics. They don't care about all of the extra stuff. We have seen this in Alan. But he's not the only one like that.

Then you have people who like the idea of being able to fight back but don't want to put in the work to actually be able to do it. They don't want to spar, they don't want to get hit.

These are the 3 common groups that I saw when I taught martial arts.

In choosing a system for self defence people should probably choose a system with a better strike rate than one guy can make it work.

People choose the defense system that they think will work best with their personality, desires, and physical capabilities. It's always been that way.

As for "better strike rate than one guy can make it work." It depends. For example, this sounds like me and my skill set of doing Jow Ga. Then I remember teaching a Jow Ga sparring class where the students learned how to use some of the same techniques that I use. Those that learned were those where those who followed my instructions. Those that didn't learn were those who had doubts and thought of the lessons as "I think it should work like this." instead of "I'm going to try as the instructor suggested."

Anyone who followed my instruction was able to learn how to fight using Jow Ga. I had two teens who were able to spar using some of the techniques I use. Some of the adults learned from me once they were able to clear their minds and doubts. I teach my brother concepts from Jow Ga and he uses them in Muay Thai. Last time I spoke with him he was telling me that he was still having a high success rate with what I taught him. It took him 2 days to learn it.

You would probably not have the same success because of the general doubt that you have about TMA systems and the techniques that are used. You would probably constantly try to edit a technique "To make it work" instead of using it within context of what I was teaching you. From that perspective there's a lot of easy things that you think to be something only a few people can do.

If I thought I was the only one who fight using Jow Ga then I wouldn't bother teaching a sparring class designed to give people a chance to use the Jow Ga technique that they train. Just something to think about,

 

[JowGaWolf]

Funny this sounds very much like the individual and not the system.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Different systems. Same name.

where I come from "Different Systems" get "Different Names"

 

[Steve]

If the electricians guild has a 98% pass rate for the journeyman’s test after 2 years and the local technical college had a 75% pass rate after 2 years, I’d say the electricians guild is clearly a better training program. Some of you are saying it’s not better because 2% of folks still fail.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is he getting better at jits. But not at boxing? But the individual right?

I don't know what you are trying to say. Literally I don't understand your shorthand here.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If the electricians guild has a 98% pass rate for the journeyman’s test after 2 years and the local technical college had a 75% pass rate after 2 years, I’d say the electricians guild is clearly a better training program. Some of you are saying it’s not better because 2% of folks still fail.

Please reference the post where someone has said this.