Best combo for street self defence

[JowGaWolf]

If you want to pick a best style for self defence you will need to sacrifice your personal likes and engage in the most effective process that will make you the best fighter.

If I wanted to pick a best style for self-defense then I would pick something that would be applicable to the type of self-defense that I need. Am I looking to build descalation skills? Am I looking to build, awareness skills? Do I need to know how to fight or do I need to know how to safely navigate my area?
Am I senior citizen with health issues or do I have a handicap that make requires adjustments to my physical fighting. Self-defense for a senior citizen who has health issues is not going to be answered by MMA. This is why many people who teach self-defense will tell you that it's not all about fighting.

Fighting skills aren't always the answer to getting out of danger. For some people fighting isn't going to be an option.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the system of training doesn't make a person better at that thing. Then what is the point of the system?

If it were binary, it would be an easier discussion. What if it makes them better, but just not as efficiently, and likely with a lesser potential final improvement?

But they enjoy it, so keep training, and reach the best potential that system can offer them?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can do in a knee with a hip throw or a leg reap.

True. It seems less likely with these, or maybe it’s just the way I experienced them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For what it’s worth, talking about some styles or other are lacking is missing the point entirely. I don’t think any style is intrinsically better or worse than any other. but how you learn and what you do with it certainly does.

And it is objectively true that some training models are more reliable than others. Take your 100 average people and train them one way or another, and you will see clear differences in results.

If their interest levels are the same, that’s true. But we know both anecdotally and from studies that personal interest has a significant impact on learning (attendance and retention).

 

[Jared Traveler]

If I wanted to pick a best style for self-defense then I would pick something that would be applicable to the type of self-defense that I need. Am I looking to build descalation skills? Am I looking to build, awareness skills? Do I need to know how to fight or do I need to know how to safely navigate my area?
Am I senior citizen with health issues or do I have a handicap that make requires adjustments to my physical fighting. Self-defense for a senior citizen who has health issues is not going to be answered by MMA. This is why many people who teach self-defense will tell you that it's not all about fighting.

Fighting skills aren't always the answer to getting out of danger. For some people fighting isn't going to be an option.

I would reference back to a form I started about "knowing what you teach." Awareness skills, and de-escalation skills are fantastic personal security skills to have, very much related to self-defense, but they are not martial arts skills. While you may have the good fortune of learning some of these skills in a dojo or gym, but they have nothing to do with the martial application of making that systems techniques work against a resisting attacker.

With that said, the better skilled you are at actually taking control of someone, or damaging someone if a fight happens, the better you can de-escalate from a position of advantage, not out of fear or nessesity.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes I think it’s safe to say we do, I said earlier that boxing is the best hands only style, look what happened when a ufc champ Conor McGregor took on the boxing champ, he got wrecked, if an aikido champ went against a Gracie, it’s only going to end one way

That’s less about the technical system (though I’d argue that’s a big factor here, too) than what they train for. To find an Aikido “champ”, you’d have to look to Tomiki’s Aikido. They train primarily for and against their own style. The Gracies have purposely trained for and against other styles.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Good points for sure, boxing is a hands only style and definitely will struggle against any style that uses more than hands, however if we just focus on hands, let’s say the world it’s champ or the world karate champ went hands only using there own style of movement and rounds time limit against any boxing champ from the last 10 years, who would you bet your money on

That's what my side note was about. I wasn't arguing about your actual argument itself (that boxing is best if you strip away everything but punching), just the evidence you used for it.

I'd also not call it just hands-for 'hands only' I might give it to sambo since a lot of grappling is done with hands. Punching only is a different story. That's just me being nitpicky

 

[Jared Traveler]

If I wanted to pick a best style for self-defense then I would pick something that would be applicable to the type of self-defense that I need. Am I looking to build descalation skills? Am I looking to build, awareness skills? Do I need to know how to fight or do I need to know how to safely navigate my area?
Am I senior citizen with health issues or do I have a handicap that make requires adjustments to my physical fighting. Self-defense for a senior citizen who has health issues is not going to be answered by MMA. This is why many people who teach self-defense will tell you that it's not all about fighting.

Fighting skills aren't always the answer to getting out of danger. For some people fighting isn't going to be an option.

Regarding senior citizens with health issues or a handicap, this is where firearms related self-defense skills shine. Although some martial arts weapon retention skills come into play, this is where(if legally available) firearms should be a strong consideration instead of a "less physical" and "less effective" unarmed martial arts program.

Again the solution is found outside of a dojo. Although depending on the situation, knife related training may be a realistic option. But ultimately the firearm is the most realistic. As they say, God made everyone, but Sam Colt made them equal.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Filipino Martial Arts - I think would be a good Hands only answer to Boxing. And then I would say it would depend upon the weight class, the time in training (Practice hours) and sparing / application.

Of course, FMA practitioners also are known for drinking and smoking and eating bad food, so they might have a disadvantage in that area.

I thought about that actually, though am biased. FMA definitely have a unique fighting style that blends well against boxing. My only concern is that a lot of the open handed stuff is done with the idea that you are trying to get to your weapon, and less time is spent on hands. So while it could be better, I'm not sure that in reality, average practitioner vs. average practitioner, if you limit yourself to just punches (which i assume is what OP means by hands only) it is.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don’t, but ya know, that’s why we all have opinions.

Yup. And this is one of those that there's no real answer for. So opinions can vary wildly

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But because of boxing, kick boxing, MMA and so on. There is a fair bit of evidence as to what works.

This is definitely a problem in systems that don’t compete much. It’s hard to get a good baseline on reliability.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

But because of boxing, kick boxing, MMA and so on. There is a fair bit of evidence as to what works.

Yup. Just not the evidence OP cited. Which was my only real point there. Stick to actual evidence, not anecdotal one-off fights

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't mean to cherry pick, but this "Some people just want to look good doing the forms."

I have honestly never met anyone who wanted that. Not even friends of mine who live by Kata.

Man, I gotta' get out more.

I’ve trained with some folks who gave lip service to wanting to be better at fighting skill, but who focused all their energy on other areas. I think they thought they “should” be interested in self-defense (since that’s the orientation of the art), but weren’t actually. I don’t think they’d have stayed training at some places, because the things they wanted to focus on wouldn’t have kept up with others.

 

[Steve]

If their interest levels are the same, that’s true. But we know both anecdotally and from studies that personal interest has a significant impact on learning (attendance and retention).

I think my point is pretty clear, Gerry, and I'm not trying to beat the dead horse. Some systems (call it training model or whatever) are just objectively better at building skill than others. There is such a thing as bad training, and bad training is agnostic to style. This is an objectively demonstrable fact that can be easily observed by evaluating performance on a macro level. Not my opinion, and not unique to martial arts. In fact, as others have said (though I think they believe they are disagreeing with me), it's the same with any developed skill.

Earlier I used the analogy of an electrician's guild that has a 98% pass rate for the journeyman’s test after 2 years and the local technical college had a 75% pass rate after 2 years. As I said, the electrician's guild is clearly a better training program. You can see it plain as day demonstrated in their results. Some of the folks here are suggesting that it is no better or worse because 2% of folks still fail... because individuals.

And I will reiterate that nothing above negates other possible incentives to do something. If it's fun and ineffective, so be it. Enjoy yourself. Just be realistic about it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The important thing to understand when choosing the best martial arts for self defence is there is no requirement for it to work.

If you buy a car and the wheels fall off you can return the car or sue the guy who sold it to you.

There is at least a minimum standard of performance.

Self defence does not have this problem. You can invest years and thousands of dollars and not gain a single thing from that experience. Even if the school in question has promised black and blue that you will achieve a result.

It is just not a requirement. And there is nothing you can do about it after the fact.

The onus is on the buyer to determine beforehand if the system they are going to use for self defence is going to work and at what level it is going to work.


It is not a requirement to judge all styles as equal because you don’twant to upset people. And not to judge a style only after you have invested significant time and money in that style.

This is not meant to be mean. It is your head on the block if something goes wrong. So be ruthless with your decisions before you have to face on the consequences.

A good self defence system will have a proven track record that you can see and test.

If you go to a class and every coloured belt ownes you every time. That is not because by some random chance a bunch of exceptional individuals just happened to be in the same place at the same time.

If after a few years you are handling everyone who walks in the door this does not mean you have suddenly become genetically better.

This means the system consistently works. And would be a viable base art for self defence.

It is not a mysterious secret hidden process when done correctly. It is straightforward, testable and observable.

And ideally, for me, at least some of the experienced folks are out there working it against people outside the school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

where I come from "Different Systems" get "Different Names"

This is where I draw a hazy distinction between “art/style” and “system”. I teach the same art as anyone who teaches NGA, but I don’t use the same system. (I often use the phrase “my curriculum” as synonymous with “my system”.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the electricians guild has a 98% pass rate for the journeyman’s test after 2 years and the local technical college had a 75% pass rate after 2 years, I’d say the electricians guild is clearly a better training program. Some of you are saying it’s not better because 2% of folks still fail.

Just being nit-picky, and I know this wasn’t your point, but it could also be the guild is using lower standards (the TC being the typical BJJ school).

I know, but it bugged me, so I had to bring it up.

(Edit: autocorrect changed the entire intent of my first phrase)

 

[Steve]

Just being not-picky, and I know this wasn’t your point, but it could also be the guild is using lower standards (the TC being the typical BJJ school).

I know, but it bugged me, so I had to bring it up.

Sure, if that's the case. But the entire point is that the standards are independent of the program. And to be clear, if it comes to fighting skill, we can be as broad or as narrow as one likes. Pick an objective measure and measure it. Some systems will be consistently better than others.

Look at it this way. The individual isn't the measure. The individual is the product, in the same way if you're roasting coffee, the coffee is the product. If I consistently roast coffee that is burnt tasting and lacks any of the character of the bean, my system is flawed. If I can't reliably roast good tasting coffee, my system is flawed, even if I get lucky sometimes. And if I can produce good coffee, time after time, my system is good, even if I screw up a new bean here and there. I wouldn't blame the coffee beans for being good or bad. It's my skill as a roaster that either brings the best out of them or not.

So, just to bring this back around to the topic at hand, the best combo for street fighting is to train in a system or combination of systems that reliably produce people who can do whatever it is you want to be able to do yourself.

Or, like with the coffee analogy, you can fall for a starbucks marketing campaign and allow yourself to be convinced that burnt coffee is what you really wanted all along.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would reference back to a form I started about "knowing what you teach." Awareness skills, and de-escalation skills are fantastic personal security skills to have, very much related to self-defense, but they are not martial arts skills. While you may have the good fortune of learning some of these skills in a dojo or gym, but they have nothing to do with the martial application of making that systems techniques work against a resisting attacker.

With that said, the better skilled you are at actually taking control of someone, or damaging someone if a fight happens, the better you can de-escalate from a position of advantage, not out of fear or nessesity.

I brought this up because self defense was mentioned. Which is no the same as fighting. self defense is a much wider spectrum.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is where I draw a hazy distinction between “art/style” and “system”. I teach the same art as anyone who teaches NGA, but I don’t use the same system. (I often use the phrase “my curriculum” as synonymous with “my system”.)

That to me is just the subject matter to be taught which may or may not include all that makes a system. A teacher may choose to focus more on kicking than punching. When I taught Jow Ga I focused more on footwork than other teachers and other schools. Which required me to create and use exercises that weren't being taught. Jow Ga has always been like this as teachers often taught to their strength.