BEST Argument for Death Penalty I've Seen!

[shesulsa]

upnorthkyosa -

Please point me to the thread where that link was used to discuss the death penalty. I'd like to see it.

Also, the link in your post # 59 in this thread points to nonsense every time I click it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade...

There certainly was graphic description of what happened in the article. I beleived the link provided a little perspective. People are very cavalier regarding the death penalty because they feel that these crimes are so very terrible, and they are, but when similar things happen at the push of a button, attitudes toward similar atrocities change and shift. I quoted Robert, because he made a good point, and those images hammer it home.

Why do we kill for one atrocity and celebrate another?

upnorthkyosa

PS - that link appeared elsewhere in the study, on another thread, yet in a discussion regarding murder and appropriate punishment for those crimes, it is entirely appropriate to "see" the crime from a different POV.

Maybe, more killing and death is not the answer in this case or in any other...

You've got me all wrong. I believe the death penalty is right because it is an extremely effective way of reducing recidivism (save the silly "studies" about how the death penalty has been "proven" not to be a deterent, they are based on the most absurd distortion of reality imaginable: of course the death penalty as it is applied in the US is no deterrent, any more than cancer is a deterrent to smoking, they both take about as long to kill).

Because it is my society, and MY children, i'm unashamedly selfish about murder and brigandage. Those who are dangerous to those I love and care about, should be removed from society. If you're hoping to point out some inconsistency in order to show hypocrisy on my part, I'll save you the trouble. I have no problem being a hypocrit. There is no universal rule that need apply, only the pragmatics of necessity.

Maybe more killing, and of the right people IS the answer. You've yet to prove that it isn't, significant evidence suggests it is. Please avoid any arguments that require empathy on my part toward the death penalty recipient, as that would be futile.

I find most anti-death penalty arguments to be absurd strawman arguments. Instead of dealing with the issues honestly, most of the time they just get in to silly emotionalistic pleas OR transparent attempts to show some moral irrelavency, or the classic "It makes you as bad as them". I felt insulted watching The Life of David Gale. Did they actually believe I was stupid enough to be swayed by that false argument. The whole situation was nothing but an elaborate suicide. How that had any real impact on the death penalty debate, I have no idea. Likewise, Dead Man Walking, what a load of emotional tripe.

A real, intellectual argument against the death penalty would be extremely refreshing.

As it is difficult to only talk in abstract terms, I propose we discuss a specific case. Review this one, and let me know your opinions folks. http://www.murdervictims.com/Voices/jeneliz.html

 

[RandomPhantom700]

You've got me all wrong. I believe the death penalty is right because it is an extremely effective way of reducing recidivism (save the silly "studies" about how the death penalty has been "proven" not to be a deterent, they are based on the most absurd distortion of reality imaginable: of course the death penalty as it is applied in the US is no deterrent, any more than cancer is a deterrent to smoking, they both take about as long to kill).

It would probably be better if you provided actual studies that support your point, as well as specifically address the insufficiencies of particular studies to the contrary, rather than just make a general statement about any studies that disagree with you.

Because it is my society, and MY children, i'm unashamedly selfish about murder and brigandage. Those who are dangerous to those I love and care about, should be removed from society. If you're hoping to point out some inconsistency in order to show hypocrisy on my part, I'll save you the trouble. I have no problem being a hypocrit. There is no universal rule that need apply, only the pragmatics of necessity.

Well last time I checked, this isn't any type of autocracy, and at any rate you're not king. This is not you're society, it belongs to all who live in it.

significant evidence suggests it is.

Such as?

Please avoid any arguments that require empathy on my part toward the death penalty recipient, as that would be futile.

This much is apparent. Going back to your whole "it's MY universe" approach, I wonder how you'd feel if it was your precious kiddies on death row.

As it is difficult to only talk in abstract terms, I propose we discuss a specific case. Review this one, and let me know your opinions folks. http://www.murdervictims.com/Voices/jeneliz.html

Will do.

 

[arnisador]

People are arguing at cross-purposes here. One side says the death penalty is philosophically wrong because killing people to show that killing people is wrong is absurd. The other side says, but it works. Both could be true. There's no point of contention here.

I have no problem with the death penalty morally. But, I have a practical problem, given how many death penalties have been overturned on DNA evidence. I think Illinois has it right--let's stop until we figure out how to do it right.

By the way, abstract terms is the only way to do this. Every murder cries out for vengeance...but are we above that urge?

 

[Kempogeek]

i dont suport the death penalty, i always have and still do belive that life (truely life not this get off on good behavior crap) is far wrose then death

Although I strongly disagree with your statement, I respect your opinion. I just do see how fair it is that this monster can continue to live, even in jail while 2 girls will never have a chance to grow up and have a future. Im sorry but if you take an innocent life, then you should give up your own. But I would be happy if some inmate snubs him. One can only hope......Steve

 

[Makalakumu]

I have two points...

1. There is a double standard in the way we feel about the deaths of some children. Some are collateral damage and some are crimes.
2. There is a double standard in the way we deal with each. Some who commit these crimes get the death penalty and some get medals.

This, in my opinion, is a nasty dose of moral relativism and I believe that pointing out this double standard is important. If we feel righteous anger for one, why not the other? Or, if we are able to casually dismiss one, why not the other?

I do not think it is right to put a man to death for the same "end result" that another commits and is therefore labled a hero. The hubris in the hypocrisy is staggering to contemplate.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

upnorthkyosa -

Please point me to the thread where that link was used to discuss the death penalty. I'd like to see it.

Also, the link in your post # 59 in this thread points to nonsense every time I click it.

The link appeared in the "100,000 Dead in Iraq" thread...and is still active because I was able to cut and paste it from that thread to this thread. I reposted the same link in order to potray the double standard I am speaking of in the above post.

I am currently seeking clarification on MT policy for posting graphic links.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

As it is difficult to only talk in abstract terms, I propose we discuss a specific case. Review this one, and let me know your opinions folks. http://www.murdervictims.com/Voices/jeneliz.html

So this is a friend's personal website relating the tale of a double rape and double homicide. A sad story, and certainly an occurrence that should be addressed by society at large, but ultimately this site does little more than appeal to a desire for revenge. It says nothing about the effectiveness of capital punishment at general deterrence, the risk of innacurate proof in capital punishment cases, or the validity of the state's right to take life. All the website says is "I'm so appalled by this act that this person just has to die"--revenge in its plainest.

 

[Tgace]

The death penalty isnt a deterrent in this country because it's seldomly applied. If everybody on death row was actually executed and this happened consistently over a period of time maybe I could accept these "studies" until then.....

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Seldomly applied? I really hope you're not referring to the appeals process. At any rate, I'm curious as to why you say this. Care to elaborate?

 

[Tgace]

New York current has 4 inmates on "death row".....we havent had an execution since 1976.

Ratio of "Death Row" inmates to actual executions...state by state application varies greatly.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=8&did=477

 

[sgtmac_46]

It would probably be better if you provided actual studies that support your point, as well as specifically address the insufficiencies of particular studies to the contrary, rather than just make a general statement about any studies that disagree with you.

Well last time I checked, this isn't any type of autocracy, and at any rate you're not king. This is not you're society, it belongs to all who live in it.

Such as?

This much is apparent. Going back to your whole "it's MY universe" approach, I wonder how you'd feel if it was your precious kiddies on death row.

Will do.

Well, so as to deal directly with your emotionally based argument first, if my child commits an act so attrocious as to merit the death penatly, i'm sure that's what they deserve. My "feelings" on the matter be damned. I tell you this as a person who has a relative currently serving time in federal prison. That's where he deserves to be, and had society deemed it necessary to execute him, i'd not be waiving a protest sign to stop it. This despite the fact I personally like him.

I never claimed to be king. I DID say how I arrived at my decisions. Sorry if that offends you, but too bad. As for me not being society, what are you saying, that you ARE society, and I am not. Seems as though society is made up of a group of people, and I plan on influencing my society as much as you do. In fact, I desire to have a greater impact to offset yours, as I have become sick at what I see as the degradation of logical reasoning in our culture.

I'm sorry my pointing out the Emperor was naked offended you on the effectiveness of the death penatly studies. Simply read them with a little bit of a critical eye. It's not required to conduct a parallel study to point out the flaws in a study, it merely requires logical reasoning. If I perform a study that said hospitals were responsible for the majority of deaths, simply because that's where most people die, would you have to perform ANOTHER study to refute that, or would simply examining the flawed way the study was conducted be enough to question it's validity. It's not rocket science. The idea that someone else has to interpret data for you is mental slavery.

I also didn't see you dealing directly with the case I cited. Come on, lets get specific. The reason it is necessary to deal with these cases individual is obvious. The opposing side seeks to distance itself from the specifics, because it is easier to distort reality that way. It is with the specifics that it becomes harder to introduce ficitious arguments. The guilt of the individuals in this case is not in dispute at all. So the whole "They might be innocent" argument is done away with. It comes down to "do they deserve to die" for this.

Each death penalty case MUST be taken as an individual case. The ideawe can determine if the death penalty is right or wrong wholesale is absurd. So lets take THIS case, then we'll work on another, and another, and another.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I have two points...

1. There is a double standard in the way we feel about the deaths of some children. Some are collateral damage and some are crimes.
2. There is a double standard in the way we deal with each. Some who commit these crimes get the death penalty and some get medals.

This, in my opinion, is a nasty dose of moral relativism and I believe that pointing out this double standard is important. If we feel righteous anger for one, why not the other? Or, if we are able to casually dismiss one, why not the other?

I do not think it is right to put a man to death for the same "end result" that another commits and is therefore labled a hero. The hubris in the hypocrisy is staggering to contemplate.

upnorthkyosa

I have no problem with double standards. My children and the children of my neighbors and friends are simply more important. This is a universe where, sometimes, there is no room for universal application of principles. Sometimes we settle for the pragmatics of the situation. I'm comfortable with that, some people aren't.

What you are doing is attempting to apply principles with limited applicability universally ad absurdum. That's the point of trying to show that applying moral principles in one sense, and ignoring them in another, is hypocrisy. A certain amount of hypocrisy is necessary in life.

For example, to say that my child has more of a right to live than a lab rat's child, who is given cancer to test a treatment for cancer, is absolutely necessary and moral. An argument could be made that it is hypocrisy, if we follow your logic. There is a flaw in that line, however, and that is that it is based on a flawed premise. That morality is universally applicable, and that is not the case (unless you want to first make the case for a universal arbiter or judge of right and wrong, in which case this becomes a theology discussion). I reject the whole premise as absurd. A certain balance of selfishness is necessary for a society. That of course conflicts with certain types of group think (Sorry, Marx) but we'll live with it.

 

[Makalakumu]

What you are doing is attempting to apply principles with limited applicability universally ad absurdum. That's the point of trying to show that applying moral principles in one sense, and ignoring them in another, is hypocrisy. A certain amount of hypocrisy is necessary in life.

That is very interesting. The current pope and his predecessor disagreed. There is a reason why they think moral relativism is a giant black hole. It is very reminiscent of Darth Vader...soon the list of neccessary evils becomes so long that one ceases to be "good".

Brush off what you wish, but to me, a dead child is a dead child is a dead child...

 

[Tgace]

Intentional murder of innocents out of rage, compulsion, etc. Is different from "collateral" (unintentional) death dyring combat operations. One of the key "elements" of a "crime" is intent.....

 

[MJS]

Seldomly applied? I really hope you're not referring to the appeals process. At any rate, I'm curious as to why you say this. Care to elaborate?

I'm not going to speak for TGace, but that is the way it sounds to me, and I have to say that if that is what hes referring to, I agree. Seems to me that there can certainly be some flaws in the legal system. While there have been cases of people wrongly put into prison, I would think that if there is no doubt that said person did the crime, then there should be no appeals.

 

[arnisador]

New York current has 4 inmates on "death row".....we havent had an execution since 1976.

It's like a life sentence plus 10 demerits, then.

We're still answering the Kitty Dukakis question after all this time! What a shame. I live in Terre Haute where we get federal executions (e.g. Timothy McVeigh) and the corresponding protests. It's a local issue here.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

I also didn't see you dealing directly with the case I cited. Come on, lets get specific.

Um, are you referring to this....

As it is difficult to only talk in abstract terms, I propose we discuss a specific case. Review this one, and let me know your opinions folks. http://www.murdervictims.com/Voices/jeneliz.html

to which I did respond with this...

So this is a friend's personal website relating the tale of a double rape and double homicide. A sad story, and certainly an occurrence that should be addressed by society at large, but ultimately this site does little more than appeal to a desire for revenge. It says nothing about the effectiveness of capital punishment at general deterrence, the risk of innacurate proof in capital punishment cases, or the validity of the state's right to take life. All the website says is "I'm so appalled by this act that this person just has to die"--revenge in its plainest.

I guess I wasn't "dealing directly with the case" enough. Would you prefer me to put up neon arrows?

 

[RandomPhantom700]

I'm not going to speak for TGace, but that is the way it sounds to me, and I have to say that if that is what hes referring to, I agree. Seems to me that there can certainly be some flaws in the legal system. While there have been cases of people wrongly put into prison, I would think that if there is no doubt that said person did the crime, then there should be no appeals.

Yet since there are cases of people being wrongly put in prison, as you've conceeded, then there is doubt concerning their guilt, so there should be appeals. Even without such cases, there is a right to appeal you know.

 

[Makalakumu]

Intentional murder of innocents out of rage, compulsion, etc. Is different from "collateral" (unintentional) death dyring combat operations. One of the key "elements" of a "crime" is intent.....

Timothy McViegh talked about the children he killed as "collateral damage".

When collateral damage is "expected" there is nothing "unintentional" about it. Also, intent can be a very subject thing...yet the end result is the same. Some parents get to bury the peices of their children and live with that horror for the rest of their lives.

Thus, I think it is hypocritical to put one person for death make another a hero for the same thing.

Moreover, what good comes from putting someone to death?

My uncle is a guard at the Oak Park Heights maximum security prison in MN. Inmates with life sentances for horrible crimes can get educated there. They can go to church, get counseling, and they can willingly perform some acts of restitution.

If given a life sentance, there is a chance to make amends. Leave death for God to decide...