Belt Testing advice

[Gerry Seymour]

Im really late with this reply, I've been a bit lazy but here goes. From my own observations, in most systems its common for a student who is of the ranks 3rd kyu-1st kyu to be wearing a brown belt of some sort. Some schools might differentiate between the three kyu ranks with stripes on the belt some schools might not, every school has their own system but often a student who is of those ranks is wearing a brown belt. Anyway, the way I see it is that a student who is of the ranks 3rd kyu-1st kyu is being groomed for 1st dan and this is especially true for a student who is 1st kyu. I certainly would not be in favor of reducing the standards for 1st dan or Shodan as its called (1st degree black belt) to do so would be to water down the rank and water down the art which is if you ask me going in the direction of the so called McDojo. As for increasing the standards for the 3rd kyu-1st kyu ranks, especially 1st kyu that sounds like a good idea. Especially since, as I said earlier in this post, a student who is within those ranks is being groomed for 1st dan.


The letter grade analogy of A vs B might not be the best analogy. My point was that there is a ten point difference between an A and a B, a ten point difference between a B and a C and so forth. A better analogy might be history classes. Lets say a student in high school or college is taking history classes. In their first year or first semester they would take History I, than after that they would take History II then History III and finally History IV. History IV is not necessarily any harder than History III, II or I, its just sequential.

Anyway its late to say this but it would still be nice to get a response from JR 137. He often says some very intelligent, insightful, and useful stuff.

The History class is a better analogy. In some systems, moving from brown to black is like going from HS to college. The test for BB is akin to testing for entrance to college, so not quite like the testing for moving from one grade of HS to another. Does that make sense?

When I was talking about changing levels, what I meant was that the big gap (like there actually is in the NGAA) between brown and black doesn't exist everywhere. In some places, they don't have as high an expectation of black belts - the belt just means something different there. In others, they have the same expectations of black belts, but higher standards for brown belts. In both cases, the gap (and, likely, the testing differences) between brown and black is less extreme.

 

[JR 137]

Im really late with this reply, I've been a bit lazy but here goes. From my own observations, in most systems its common for a student who is of the ranks 3rd kyu-1st kyu to be wearing a brown belt of some sort. Some schools might differentiate between the three kyu ranks with stripes on the belt some schools might not, every school has their own system but often a student who is of those ranks is wearing a brown belt. Anyway, the way I see it is that a student who is of the ranks 3rd kyu-1st kyu is being groomed for 1st dan and this is especially true for a student who is 1st kyu. I certainly would not be in favor of reducing the standards for 1st dan or Shodan as its called (1st degree black belt) to do so would be to water down the rank and water down the art which is if you ask me going in the direction of the so called McDojo. As for increasing the standards for the 3rd kyu-1st kyu ranks, especially 1st kyu that sounds like a good idea. Especially since, as I said earlier in this post, a student who is within those ranks is being groomed for 1st dan.



The letter grade analogy of A vs B might not be the best analogy. My point was that there is a ten point difference between an A and a B, a ten point difference between a B and a C and so forth. A better analogy might be history classes. Lets say a student in high school or college is taking history classes. In their first year or first semester they would take History I, than after that they would take History II then History III and finally History IV. History IV is not necessarily any harder than History III, II or I, its just sequential.


Anyway its late to say this but it would still be nice to get a response from JR 137. He often says some very intelligent, insightful, and useful stuff.

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, but I think you're asking my opinion on if 3rd kyu-1st kyu testing should be harder so going from 1st kyu to 1st dan isn't a huge step in difficulty?

So long as the standard for 1st dan isn't compromised, sure. I think it's a great thing. I don't think you should make the shodan (1st dan) test easier in any way, but rather make the 3rd-1st kyu tests harder.

My personal experience...

1st stint in karate, I was scheduled to test for 2nd dan and preparing, but was offered a graduate assistantship 4 hours away...

Every kyu test was increasingly difficult. 10th - 4th or so weren't too hard. 3rd was a big jump, 2nd was a decent jump from 3rd. 2nd - 1st kyu was a decent jump. Testing for 1st kyu was like a scaled down 1st dan test. About half the amount of time, and 2/3-ish the intensity.

1st kyu test was about 2-2.5 hours. We covered about 70% of the syllabus from 10th-2nd kyu (no new material at 1st). There's always curveballs when doing material during a test, but there weren't very many. It was pretty straightforward. My CI was very strict on technique during kata, basics, and prearranged stuff. We did 10-15 rounds of sparring.

Shodan was very tough. About 5 hours of actual physical testing time (we wrote and discussed a paper, and getting the belt took longer as he had a lot more to say and tell us than usual).

It was nonstop. The first thing we did was 100 front kicks, each leg, with a black belt holding a kicking shield. Then 100 each leg of most kicks - roundhouse, side, hook, inside-out and outside-in crescent, knee kick, groin kick, and probably a few more. After that he said "now that we're warmed up, we can begin." Begin?

Then we went through the entire syllabus, one kyu rank at a time, minus kata and prearranged stuff.

Then we got to kata. He had another black belt holding a clipboard and crossing out each kata after we finished it. He needed the clipboard because he'd call them out in random order, and we'd just keep going rather than stop and reset after each one. There were 14 kata total. We went through them all to his count, then through them all again without him counting.

The biggest curveball was our 1 step sparring. We had always gone through them in order, and from a stereotypical attacker in a forward leaning stance, right hand low block, then step and punch. We'd do them all against a right punch, then against a left punch. We have 10 "basic" 1 steps and 10 "intermediate." Against right punch and left punch, there's 40 total. This time, we were in a fighting stance and moving around like free-sparring, and he'd call out a random number and random punch, such as "basic #5, left punch coming, go!" Intermediate #2, right punch coming, go!" We did each one several times so we couldn't anticipate which ones were left/next.

Then we did 25 rounds of sparring. 2 minutes each, no break, knockdown rules (but with hand, feet and head protection), and a fresh black belt opponent every round. After that we did a 4 minute round against each other (there was only 2 of us testing).

Sorry if I went too far describing the shodan test. I was reliving some glory. I loved every second of that test. It was by far the most physically difficult thing I've ever done. The 1st kyu test was physically tough, but it was pretty straightforward. The shodan test was significantly harder physically and mentally. I spoke to my old teacher about it a few years ago. That was the first black belt test he ran on his own (he left his organization a few weeks prior), and he said it was by far the hardest he's ever run. There were only two of us testing, and his goal was to bring us as close to our breaking point as possible. We were both early 20s guys who'd been around since the bare knuckle days and were two of the 3 hardest workers in the dojo. He's lightened up a bit since then. He said he's shortened the test to about 2.5 hours, but the sparring requirement hasn't changed any.

I'm 3rd kyu at my current dojo. My last test was right around the 4th of July holiday. It was only 1.5 hours, but it was easily the second hardest test I've been through, physically. I know about 90% of the material from my previous dojo (my former organization was started by 2 guys from my current organization, so the syllabi are about 90% identical), so my current CI can push me a lot harder physically instead of having me repeat stuff as much as others without my background.

How big a jump will 1st kyu to shodan be in my current school? No idea. But it shouldn't be a huge jump physically as my previous dojo. It's not an apples to apples comparison though - my previous school did shodan testing in one day. My current organization reportedly does it over 4 or 5 sessions, with each session being around 2 hours. If it was all in one day, as there have been occasionally for out of town people, it would basically be the same way my former sensei did it. Basically, my former sensei did what the head of my current organization does, only he did it in one day vs spread over 4 evenings. So if I'm currently used to physically intense 2 hour testing sessions, my shodan test won't be a big jump; it'll just be more of the sessions. But my teacher and his teacher (who'll test me for shodan, and is the head of my current organization) most likely have different curveballs to throw at me. Being two different people, that's just the nature of the beast though.

Sorry for the extra long post. Hopefully it doesn't take an hour to read through it all

 

[JR 137]

@PhotonGuy and @gpseymour

I came up with what I think is a better analogy while I was writing my previous dissertation ( )...

Let's say you have to jump 100 feet total between 2nd kyu and shodan. Rather than jumping 10 feet between 2nd and first, and 90 feet between 1st kyu and shodan, what PhotonGuy is saying is how about jumping 30 feet between 3-2, 30 feet between 2-1, and the remaining 40 feet between 1st kyu and shodan? The 100 feet total distance jumped is still the same, but it's just spread out in more even intervals.

Maybe it sounds better in my head than in yours though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@PhotonGuy and @gpseymour

I came up with what I think is a better analogy while I was writing my previous dissertation ( )...

Let's say you have to jump 100 feet total between 2nd kyu and shodan. Rather than jumping 10 feet between 2nd and first, and 90 feet between 1st kyu and shodan, what PhotonGuy is saying is how about jumping 30 feet between 3-2, 30 feet between 2-1, and the remaining 40 feet between 1st kyu and shodan? The 100 feet total distance jumped is still the same, but it's just spread out in more even intervals.

Maybe it sounds better in my head than in yours though.

I do think that's a better analogy. And it fits my reply better. If 100 feet is the objective for shodan, and the tests have been testing 10 feet each, with 7 ranks, you're left with a big gap on the last test. Two other organizations might have more even testing - one because they test 80' at shodan (that's just what their requirement is, what BB means), and another has more stringent testing along the way (about 12 feet each rank) using the same 100 foot requirement at shodan. I'm not sure there's a "better" among those. The first group may find some value in the big change in requirements - using it as a part of the test to separate two groups (especially where BB is an instructor rank). The second group has simply decided shodan isn't as important a rank. The third has more gradual development, so there's little difference between ikkyu and shodan.

I liked the significant step-up I went through (it was actually two - a pretty big change on ikkyu test, then a bigger change at shodan test). But I decided to use both of methods of removing the big step-up. I won't start to certify an instructor until after they complete their shodan, so that part of the requirements (instructor training) is reduced. I have also increased the requirements for every student rank (and removed a rank).

 

[JR 137]

I do think that's a better analogy. And it fits my reply better. If 100 feet is the objective for shodan, and the tests have been testing 10 feet each, with 7 ranks, you're left with a big gap on the last test. Two other organizations might have more even testing - one because they test 80' at shodan (that's just what their requirement is, what BB means), and another has more stringent testing along the way (about 12 feet each rank) using the same 100 foot requirement at shodan. I'm not sure there's a "better" among those. The first group may find some value in the big change in requirements - using it as a part of the test to separate two groups (especially where BB is an instructor rank). The second group has simply decided shodan isn't as important a rank. The third has more gradual development, so there's little difference between ikkyu and shodan.

I liked the significant step-up I went through (it was actually two - a pretty big change on ikkyu test, then a bigger change at shodan test). But I decided to use both of methods of removing the big step-up. I won't start to certify an instructor until after they complete their shodan, so that part of the requirements (instructor training) is reduced. I have also increased the requirements for every student rank (and removed a rank).

I think I liked the significant step up in my previous organization, but I'm not 100% sure it was actually the step up or not.

I really liked the hard test. I liked being pushed hard. I liked that I thought it would be really hard, yet didn't truly realize how hard it would actually be. I liked that as much of a test of my knowledge and ability as it was (I definitely would've failed if I didn't know my stuff), it was far more of a test of will; I wouldn't have been invited if to test if my CI was on the fence about my knowledge and ability. Then again, if he thought I'd give up, I wouldn't have been invited to test either.

In the end, I guess you really have to make the big jump in difficulty from 1st kyu (ikkyu for PhotonGuy) to shodan if part of shodan testing is testing the candidate's will/determination. IMO it's every bit a learning experience as it is a test in that regard. Learning where you stand, how hard you can be pushed and are willing to be pushed.

My CI pushes me harder in every kyu test than my previous sensei did, up to this point. But I'm pretty sure he pushes my harder than the others. I can't say that for certain because I've never tested alongside anyone else for the same rank at the same time. The others testing with me have always been lower ranks (I'm the highest kyu adult in the dojo), except the first one or two tests when I was testing for 8th, and another adult was testing for 1st.

If I'm genuinely pushed harder than the norm, it's because I've already been through the process before and he knows I can handle it.

Regardless of everything, I love the really hard tests. Not because it gives me more pride in the belt I earned, but because I loved being pushed out of my comfort zone. It's honestly my favorite part of karate. It like the difference in winning a soccer game 10-0 where you didn't break a sweat, and winning 1-0 where it took everything you had. 10-0 bores me, that 1-0 win means everything. I'd even rather lose 0-1 and know I gave it my all than win 10-0 against a bunch of people who had no business being on the field with me.

 

[PhotonGuy]

@PhotonGuy and @gpseymour

I came up with what I think is a better analogy while I was writing my previous dissertation ( )...

Let's say you have to jump 100 feet total between 2nd kyu and shodan. Rather than jumping 10 feet between 2nd and first, and 90 feet between 1st kyu and shodan, what PhotonGuy is saying is how about jumping 30 feet between 3-2, 30 feet between 2-1, and the remaining 40 feet between 1st kyu and shodan? The 100 feet total distance jumped is still the same, but it's just spread out in more even intervals.

Maybe it sounds better in my head than in yours though.

I see what you mean but I would also like to put into perspective the time it takes to advance in rank and this might be the best example. Lets say it takes 8 months to go from 3rd kyu to 2nd kyu and 8 months to go from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu than it should take around 8 months to go from 1st kyu to 1st dan or maybe a year at the most, but it shouldn't take much longer than that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see what you mean but I would also like to put into perspective the time it takes to advance in rank and this might be the best example. Lets say it takes 8 months to go from 3rd kyu to 2nd kyu and 8 months to go from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu than it should take around 8 months to go from 1st kyu to 1st dan or maybe a year at the most, but it shouldn't take much longer than that.

In general, I agree that this makes sense. But I don't see any reason it must be so. If there is instructor training, it might be held until this point, and that would naturally make this a longer transition. It could also be started a rank or two earlier, keeping them more even. I don't see any real advantage to one or the other approach.

 

[PhotonGuy]

In general, I agree that this makes sense. But I don't see any reason it must be so. If there is instructor training, it might be held until this point, and that would naturally make this a longer transition. It could also be started a rank or two earlier, keeping them more even. I don't see any real advantage to one or the other approach.

If by instructor training, if you mean that when a student reaches 1st dan that they're expected to help out with instruction and that therefore a 1st kyu student is going to start to undergo instructor training that could make the transition longer but from what I've seen in some dojos and from my own experience in my first serious dojo, brown belt students sometimes help out with instruction. All too often a brown belt student will be instructing other lower ranking students under the guidance of the chief instructor. This might start as early as 3rd kyu. So if a 1st dan student is expected to help out with instruction in a major way than such instructor training it would make sense should start perhaps as early as 3rd kyu. That way a 1st kyu student will be much more ready for when they are expected to play a bigger role as an instructor at 1st dan.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If by instructor training, if you mean that when a student reaches 1st dan that they're expected to help out with instruction and that therefore a 1st kyu student is going to start to undergo instructor training that could make the transition longer but from what I've seen in some dojos and from my own experience in my first serious dojo, brown belt students sometimes help out with instruction. All too often a brown belt student will be instructing other lower ranking students under the guidance of the chief instructor. This might start as early as 3rd kyu. So if a 1st dan student is expected to help out with instruction in a major way than such instructor training it would make sense should start perhaps as early as 3rd kyu. That way a 1st kyu student will be much more ready for when they are expected to play a bigger role as an instructor at 1st dan.

In the NGAA, 1st dan is a full instructor. So, during the transition from 1st kyu to 1st dan, there's an instructor prep portion. Most will have started their "assisting" at 2nd kyu, but there's a full formal process (including a required year of teaching at least a class a week) for instructor development. That expands the timeframe more, because of the time commitments to the instructor development. And it could be shifted, starting the development program earlier to keep the steps more regular, but the progression is pretty stable. First belt takes 2-3 months, next one takes a few months, next one takes a bit more, and so on. Most folks spend about 18 months at 1st kyu, which is in line with the increasing length for each next promotion.

I could see adjusting to make things more even, but that would mean starting all the way back at 5th kyu, changing the requirements so it takes at least a few months to get there. If they did that, there'd then be a huge step from 1st-kyu/1st-dan to 1st-dan/2nd-dan (which takes a minimum of 3 years). By having a progressively bigger step from kyu to kyu, it makes a smooth transition to the dan rankings. Folks just get used to a progressively longer time spent at each point.

 

[PhotonGuy]

In the NGAA, 1st dan is a full instructor. So, during the transition from 1st kyu to 1st dan, there's an instructor prep portion. Most will have started their "assisting" at 2nd kyu, but there's a full formal process (including a required year of teaching at least a class a week) for instructor development. That expands the timeframe more, because of the time commitments to the instructor development. And it could be shifted, starting the development program earlier to keep the steps more regular, but the progression is pretty stable. First belt takes 2-3 months, next one takes a few months, next one takes a bit more, and so on. Most folks spend about 18 months at 1st kyu, which is in line with the increasing length for each next promotion.

I could see adjusting to make things more even, but that would mean starting all the way back at 5th kyu, changing the requirements so it takes at least a few months to get there. If they did that, there'd then be a huge step from 1st-kyu/1st-dan to 1st-dan/2nd-dan (which takes a minimum of 3 years). By having a progressively bigger step from kyu to kyu, it makes a smooth transition to the dan rankings. Folks just get used to a progressively longer time spent at each point.

In some systems a 1st dan will be a full instructor in others a 1st dan might be more of an assistant instructor. I've seen some systems where full instructors wear special uniforms. A student could be 1st dan but not be a full instructor and not wear the special uniform. You say it usually takes 18 months to go from 1st kyu to 1st dan. So I assume it takes around 14-16 months to go fro 2nd kyu to 1st kyu. That would be reasonable. To the best of my knowledge in BJJ they don't call their ranks by kyu or dan. Rather, ranks are simply addressed by their belt color. In the BJJ system it usually takes about 2 years to go from brown to black and it usually takes 2 years to go from purple to brown so its in proportion. But, for it to take, say, 8 months to go from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu and then 2 years to go from 1st kyu to 1st dan is absurd.

It would make sense, depending on the system, that it might take a bit longer to advance in rank once you get to the high ranks and by that I mean when you get to around the rank of 3rd kyu and above, but for it to take much longer would make it out of proportion.

 

[skribs]

I failed my first kyu test in NGA. I forgot the name of one of the 10 techniques I was testing on. I wonder if that failure contributed to me being so over-prepared for every other test.

You forgot one name and that failed the test for you? Jeez. I'd be nowhere in my art if a single mistake cost me the test. Out of 18 tests I've taken there, I think there's only one test where I haven't made at least one mistake (and even then, maybe I did and didn't realize it).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You forgot one name and that failed the test for you? Jeez. I'd be nowhere in my art if a single mistake cost me the test. Out of 18 tests I've taken there, I think there's only one test where I haven't made at least one mistake (and even then, maybe I did and didn't realize it).

Naming the techniques you are testing on is part of their requirements. It's not just a matter of remembering the name - I just forgot one of the techniques, and couldn't remember which one was missing. But even forgetting the name of a technique would be a failure with many instructors.

I've been debating whether I care if students can recall all their techniques, or if I prefer to be able to request (in the moment) what I want to see. There's a (non-martial, but possible training) benefit to small requirements like that.

 

[skribs]

Naming the techniques you are testing on is part of their requirements. It's not just a matter of remembering the name - I just forgot one of the techniques, and couldn't remember which one was missing. But even forgetting the name of a technique would be a failure with many instructors.

I've been debating whether I care if students can recall all their techniques, or if I prefer to be able to request (in the moment) what I want to see. There's a (non-martial, but possible training) benefit to small requirements like that.

Did you get a chance to rectify it, or did they just say "you missed one" and fail you on the spot?

Even then, 90% was an A- in most classes I ever took.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Did you get a chance to rectify it, or did they just say "you missed one" and fail you on the spot?

Even then, 90% was an A- in most classes I ever took.

Failed, had to wait 2 weeks and try again. Same as if I'd tried to do the technique and couldn't. Since the curriculum is cumulative, completely failing any one technique is always a failure on the test, even when all 50 techniques are tested.

 

[hoshin1600]

Failed, had to wait 2 weeks and try again. Same as if I'd tried to do the technique and couldn't. Since the curriculum is cumulative, completely failing any one technique is always a failure on the test, even when all 50 techniques are tested.

well 2 weeks aint bad at all. in Japanese Goju-ryu a kyu rank only happens once or twice a year. students would have to wait until the next test. for black belt from what i am told only the head of the organization gives those so you would have to fly out to California again in a year or two to try again.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Failed, had to wait 2 weeks and try again. Same as if I'd tried to do the technique and couldn't. Since the curriculum is cumulative, completely failing any one technique is always a failure on the test, even when all 50 techniques are tested.

This was one of the biggest issues for me, for a while, and part of the reason it took me over a decade to get to black belt. I knew (and still know) all the techniques from my original art, up to black, which is probably 75+ separate techniques not including forms. My issue is that then we also needed to know which techniques were for which belt, and what order they were for that belt. I just flat out could not remember the order, especially since I learned many of them out of order to begin with. So you could ask me to perform a technique, any technique, and I would do it better than some of the black belts (whom had been training half as long as me), but then you say "perform brown belt 1 kempo 3" and I'd just give a blank stare and start laughing that you want me to remember what that is.

 

[PhotonGuy]

well 2 weeks aint bad at all. in Japanese Goju-ryu a kyu rank only happens once or twice a year. students would have to wait until the next test. for black belt from what i am told only the head of the organization gives those so you would have to fly out to California again in a year or two to try again.

What you describe is perhaps in a specific Goju-ryu organization but it wouldn't apply to all Goju-ryu dojos. I am training in Goju-ryu right now and from my experience it takes about four months to get a belt. Right now I am a yellow belt which comes right after white and my instructor said I might be testing for orange in January. As for higher kyu ranks or going from 1st kyu to 1st dan I suppose it might take longer to advance although I don't know of the specifics yet.

 

[PhotonGuy]

This was one of the biggest issues for me, for a while, and part of the reason it took me over a decade to get to black belt. I knew (and still know) all the techniques from my original art, up to black, which is probably 75+ separate techniques not including forms. My issue is that then we also needed to know which techniques were for which belt, and what order they were for that belt. I just flat out could not remember the order, especially since I learned many of them out of order to begin with. So you could ask me to perform a technique, any technique, and I would do it better than some of the black belts (whom had been training half as long as me), but then you say "perform brown belt 1 kempo 3" and I'd just give a blank stare and start laughing that you want me to remember what that is.

Earning rank means meeting your instructor's standards and obviously in your system the standards did not just consist of being able to perform the techniques exceptionally well you also had to know the names of the techniques, what belts they were for, and the order they were in. So if you wanted to earn rank at your school you had to know that. Preparing for advancement and preparing for rank tests involves knowing what you need to know and properly studying and training so that you can pass.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Earning rank means meeting your instructor's standards and obviously in your system the standards did not just consist of being able to perform the techniques exceptionally well you also had to know the names of the techniques, what belts they were for, and the order they were in. So if you wanted to earn rank at your school you had to know that. Preparing for advancement and preparing for rank tests involves knowing what you need to know and properly studying and training so that you can pass.

Yup. I wasn't complaining or saying it's unfair, just relaying an experience, about why it took me so long. If the belt was important to me I would have spent more time figuring out the order, but I'd rather spend my time working on the techniques themselves. So I spent a couple years not testing.

 

[hoshin1600]

What you describe is perhaps in a specific Goju-ryu organization but it wouldn't apply to all Goju-ryu dojos

If you look at my post again I said Japanese Goju-ryu. Which is different from Okinawan Goju-ryu. By using the Japanese prefix I was implying the Goju kai organization and the Yamaguchi lineage. When the prefix Japanese is used in this instance it is usually infers the Yamaguchi line. So yes you are correct my statement applies only to this organization. I was not under the assumption that all Goju-ryu headquarters are located in California or that they would all follow the same guidelines.