Belt Testing advice

[PhotonGuy]

Hi, I'm new to this forum but need to reach out to the community for advice. My spouse any myself as well as out 7 year old practice Karate in a traditional Japanese dojo.
The 7 year old has been at the school for 2 years and only moved up one belt rank in that time. So from white, to yellow, and it took him 8 months, which is long for that stage. It's been a full year ( and 4 testing cycles) since that last test and going to class 2x per week consistently. All his peers passed him up, so he is now at the level of students who began training after him. He has not been invited to test but the other children in his group have. I am NOT one of those parents who thinks my child is perfect, as a practitioner myself I see where he needs to be better, and these kids are at the same level, one even being slightly behind the group in technique but still invited to test.
I broke etiquette and asked one of the directors (there are 5) "what's holding him back? I'm concerned because it's been a full year." This black belt didn't know and said he'd ask the board (who votes on who tests) and get back to me. I'm afraid I will be given a blanket answer of "he's just not ready!" but there seems to be a personal reason behind this since my son has been doing the test techniques every day for a year.

Any way I'm looking for feedback, and opinions. My spouse and other parents and I are baffled why he's being intentionally excluded.

You mention testing cycles. So I take it your dojo schedules tests at regular occurring times, how often are tests scheduled?

As for your son, he might be a late bloomer. He is only 7 so he still has much growing to do. Some children are naturally really good at young ages. Other children who don't bloom as early have to push themselves harder at younger ages but in time they can catch up to and even bypass their peers who were better at first.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If he's not good enough then he's not good enough simple as that. Just because he practices every day doesn't mean he's doing them right. At least he'll know he deserves the belt when he gets it. If your kid is learning then that's the main thing belts really aren't important it's the skills you learn. Just see what the instructor says but if he says he's not good enough then you can't do anything about it. Sounds like a good school to be honest not just giving it to them and holding them back if they're not ready

Well no if the child isn't good enough there isn't really anything the OP can do about it other than encourage the child since for the child to get better, its really up to the child. I do agree with you that belts are less important than the skills. I would say the important thing is to develop the skills to earn the belt.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Personally I think you and your kid should be honoured that the instructor cares about your kid. I've been passed over for promotion before and yeah sure it's a bit frustrating but it shows me my instructor cared about me. If they didnt care about me they'd put me in a test and maybe give me the belt and take my money even if I don't deserve it. But by holding me back it shows they want me to actually deserve the belt and make me a better martial artist. That's how I've always seen it

I agree. They shouldn't pass you if you haven't met their standards. If they do than it means they've lied to you and you haven't earned your new rank for real. Its also important, if you don't meet their standards, to know why you don't meet them and what you can do to meet them.

 

[oftheherd1]

One thing to think about is when you are told what he needs to do to be promoted, give him a formal test yourself. You will both be a little self conscious but you may both learn something.

Is there a possibility he doesn't wish to continue but doesn't want to say so since it has become something of a shared family activity that he sees his parents really enjoying? Maybe he needs to get into acting?

I hope when you get an answer, or not, you will let us know and what any proposed solution was from the teacher.

 

[Headhunter]

One thing to think about is when you are told what he needs to do to be promoted, give him a formal test yourself. You will both be a little self conscious but you may both learn something.

Is there a possibility he doesn't wish to continue but doesn't want to say so since it has become something of a shared family activity that he sees his parents really enjoying? Maybe he needs to get into acting?

I hope when you get an answer, or not, you will let us know and what any proposed solution was from the teacher.

I see what your saying there but I don't see that helping much I mean the op obviously thinks his kid is good enough already so him doing a mock test isn't going To help much

 

[oftheherd1]

I see what your saying there but I don't see that helping much I mean the op obviously thinks his kid is good enough already so him doing a mock test isn't going To help much

You may be right. But I think it could after having been given reasons by the teacher. Also, some things may slip through the self consciousness that could be telling.

What do you think about the second possibility I mentioned? I would hope that isn't it, but I think it is worth considering. And more important, what to do if one thinks that is the reason.

 

[Headhunter]

You may be right. But I think it could after having been given reasons by the teacher. Also, some things may slip through the self consciousness that could be telling.

What do you think about the second possibility I mentioned? I would hope that isn't it, but I think it is worth considering. And more important, what to do if one thinks that is the reason.

It's possible I think especially these days most kids have done karate at at least 1 point in there life and probably about 80% quit after a short time. Most times it's the parents who want them to do martial arts and the kid is dragged there. If the kid doesn't want to do it he shouldn't be there in my eyes. It's a waste of time for everyone. For the kid who doesn't want to be there, for the parent taking them there and for the instructor who's wasting time teaching someone who has no interest when they could be teaching someone who wants to be there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see what your saying there but I don't see that helping much I mean the op obviously thinks his kid is good enough already so him doing a mock test isn't going To help much

Unless the child is not performing as well at the test. Some folks have the skills, but can't pass the test as easily. A mock test can help get them past that hurdle. If they take the mock test seriously, it may even show up the problem.

 

[Headhunter]

Unless the child is not performing as well at the test. Some folks have the skills, but can't pass the test as easily. A mock test can help get them past that hurdle. If they take the mock test seriously, it may even show up the problem.

Yeah but the whole problem here is he's not allowed to test not that he's failing it

 

[DomoArigato]

As I stated in my OP, I am karateka, as well as my husband. We know the criteria. Also, it was never addressed in public, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

Anyway!
To update: I spoke to Sensei and he gave me pretty every excuse I imagined it was interesting. So, that's that. Thanks for the comments!

Domo ariagato gozaimashita *bow*

 

[JR 137]

As I stated in my OP, I am karateka, as well as my husband. We know the criteria. Also, it was never addressed in public, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

Anyway!
To update: I spoke to Sensei and he gave me pretty every excuse I imagined it was interesting. So, that's that. Thanks for the comments!

Domo ariagato gozaimashita *bow*

What "excuses" did you get?

I understand if you're uncomfortable posting it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yeah but the whole problem here is he's not allowed to test not that he's failing it

Well if he's not allowed to test there's a reason. The important thing is to know what that reason is so he can fix it, if he wants to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but the whole problem here is he's not allowed to test not that he's failing it

I forgot that point. Mock tests will not do much to help with that.

 

[Tez3]

We know the criteria.

I understand that but can you judge what he does quite dispassionately and without any bias at all either way ie too critically or too loosely? Is the instructor seeing something you aren't, such as your son isn't enjoying the training or doesn't actually want to grade but doesn't like to tell you? With both parents training and enjoying what they do there's strong unspoken pressure on the child to do the same.

 

[Headhunter]

As I stated in my OP, I am karateka, as well as my husband. We know the criteria. Also, it was never addressed in public, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

Anyway!
To update: I spoke to Sensei and he gave me pretty every excuse I imagined it was interesting. So, that's that. Thanks for the comments!

Domo ariagato gozaimashita *bow*

You need to realise the instructor doesn't need to make excuses like it or not they're the ones that make the choice. They can test who they want when they want and if not they can simply say he's not ready if they want. That's just the way it is if you can't accept it then walk away.

Also is it actually "making excuses" or is if a legitimate reason why but you don't want to hear it

 

[PhotonGuy]

The etiquette at my school is don't ask to promote. You'll be invited to promote when the CI feels you're ready.

I like it. It discourages the race to promote mentality, keeps people from hounding the CI, etc. But there's a downside to everything. People may not feel comfortable asking why they're not invited to test when they've met the attendance requirements and they think they're skilled enough to promote. It can be awkward asking why and trying not to come off as asking to promote. And the CI may feel the student's pushing for an undeserved promotion. It's a balancing act.

You make some good points. Also, I believe in other posts you said you're a school teacher. With your background in education there are some things we could discuss.

 

[JR 137]

You make some good points. Also, I believe in other posts you said you're a school teacher. With your background in education there are some things we could discuss.

I teach grades 4-8 science and pre-k 3 and 4 physical education at a private school. I'll discuss pretty much anything related.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I teach grades 4-8 science and pre-k 3 and 4 physical education at a private school. I'll discuss pretty much anything related.

Well aside from that you said that at your dojo a student has to be told before they can test for promotion. So are tests scheduled at regular intervals or is a student just told to test when the instructor sees they're ready? Are students truly "tested" or are they just promoted and the so called test just serves the purpose of showing off what they've learned? Another words, when the instructor sees the student is ready the student puts on a "demonstration" and is automatically promoted. Im asking since there's been other people on this forum whose dojos use such a system.

 

[JR 137]

Well aside from that you said that at your dojo a student has to be told before they can test for promotion. So are tests scheduled at regular intervals or is a student just told to test when the instructor sees they're ready? Are students truly "tested" or are they just promoted and the so called test just serves the purpose of showing off what they've learned? Another words, when the instructor sees the student is ready the student puts on a "demonstration" and is automatically promoted. Im asking since there's been other people on this forum whose dojos use such a system.

We may have had this discussion before, or maybe I had it with someone else here; I don't remember...

I'm currently a 3rd kyu at my school, therefore I can't say firsthand what happens at black belt testing. At any rank, testing is by invitation only. If you have to ask, the answer is no.

Tests are on the calendar for every other month or so. Sometimes there's a couple people who'll test (adults and/or kids), sometimes no one's promoting. Scheduling them, even if no one's testing keeps my CI organized and keeps him from forgetting. Adults and kids test separately.

I haven't seen anyone fail, but I've heard about it happening at our school in the past. I guess you could say it's your chance to fail more than it's your chance to pass, in a way. People have failed for freezing and not being able to be "brought back" mentally. People have failed by giving up, not taking it seriously, and/or other disrespectful acts. In my CI's almost 30 years running a dojo, he's had a handful of people fail kyu tests. Testing isn't some elaborate thing; it's basically a regular class, only the intensity is much higher and the people testing (other students not testing are there too, as it's during regular class time) are put a step in front of everyone else, and they're always paired up with black belts who'll push them harder than the norm. Much harder. Kyu testing is usually done before black belts class, so as the student advances, they stay for black belts class to spar with them too. The higher the kyu student gets, the longer they stay in that class.

I guess you can say it's more of a demonstration that an actual test, but it's a demonstration where you're pushed pretty hard and pushed outside your comfort zone. Give it all you've got, don't panic and don't do anything disrespectful, and you're good.

Black belt testing is done by our founder in NYC. Our CI can promote to some black belt ranks, but he'd rather his teacher do it. Black belt testing is a multi day thing. Students routinely fail. I've been told out of 40 or so testing, 5-10 won't pass. They won't be called out publicly, but at the end of a session they'll be pulled aside and told to try again at another time.

My CI has never had anyone fail a black belt test. He only sends people he knows are fully ready. When a CI's students regularly fail black belt tests, it's more of a reflection on the CI than the students. CI's are held accountable for their students. There has been "Why are you sending unprepared students to test?" type questions asked of CIs. Nakamura won't promote people to black belt ranks unless he genuinely feels they're worthy of it. It's an actual test, not a demonstration. I guess if the student is well prepared, one could consider it a demonstration.

At the end of the day, kyu testing is more of a formality and preparation for black belt testing, whereas black belt testing is all truly testing.

My former organization worked the same way, except kyu testing was more formal, or better yet there was more sizzle, but honestly there was less steak. My 1st dan test was very intense and was a true test. If you weren't up to the standards, you didn't pass.

I'd rather have to be invited rather than everyone is tested. There's no sense in setting up people to fail when the CI knows they're not going to pass.

I've never failed an MA test. I've honestly always been well prepared. If I didn't feel like I deserved to test, I'd tell the CI. Hasn't happened yet, but it's not impossible.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've never failed an MA test. I've honestly always been well prepared. If I didn't feel like I deserved to test, I'd tell the CI. Hasn't happened yet, but it's not impossible.

I failed my first kyu test in NGA. I forgot the name of one of the 10 techniques I was testing on. I wonder if that failure contributed to me being so over-prepared for every other test.